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Both Pilots Asleep At Controls of Packed Passenger Jet
Two pilots flying a commercial airliner filled with passengers were both asleep at the controls last month, leaving the jet on autopilot for an unknown amount of time, British aviation authorities said. (gma.yahoo.com) Más...Sort type: [Top] [Newest]
Pilots and doctors have some of the most vital jobs, relative to dealing with other people's lives. And yet, they get the least amount of sleep of any. Something's not right with that.
It's better for pilots to get some shut eye at altitude, ratter than be at less than their prime during final approach. But they should take turns.
Would be interesting to know what the distance traveled was for the flight in question, and whether their were any other flight crew on the flight.
Would be interesting to know what the distance traveled was for the flight in question, and whether their were any other flight crew on the flight.
Same bunch that forced the 1500hr rule on everybody is in favor of the power naps and has evidenced they can be refreshing; can't understand why the FAA is so slow coming to that when they just stumbled all over themselves to implement the 1500hr rule.
Can't they bring along a trustworthy (and old fashioned) alarm clock to the cockpit to ring very loud every say 2 hours and then switch on-duty vigils. As an old pro like PhotoFinish is saying: well rested pilots are a must during the last stages of the flight.
Railroad locomotives have reset buttons that need to be pressed every couple minutes or the loco will automatically stop. I'm sure something similar can be implemented on flight decks.
No push the button, engines shut down. That'll keep you awake.
LOL For sure.
Actually, on second thought with so many mainline pilots having trouble when automation is unavailable (eg Asiana, Air France), we may be asking for more trouble than it's worth.
You would think that restarting a stalled plane from scratch would be a skill that an accomplished pilot would have. But then again you would've thought that a perfectly functioning plane with the engines on, temporarily in an aerodynamic stall, would be recoverable. You would think wrong. In some cases, the pilots just lack the most basic flying skills. If some pilots can't handle the autopilot kicking out, or be able to properly select the flight mode on approach; adding such a engine cutoff would be guaranteed to increase airline fatalities slightly. Even if such a device would do wonders for keeping pilots awake.
Then you'd have the secondary effect of lots more pilots on approach that haven't gotten sufficient rest. So not only might you have more crashes directly caused by the engine stoppage, but also mite crashes caused indirectly by the increased level of fatigue.
I'd say, continue to look the other way and let pilots get some shut eye at cruise altitude (in alternating turns) and have them fresh for when you really need them on final approach.
You would think that restarting a stalled plane from scratch would be a skill that an accomplished pilot would have. But then again you would've thought that a perfectly functioning plane with the engines on, temporarily in an aerodynamic stall, would be recoverable. You would think wrong. In some cases, the pilots just lack the most basic flying skills. If some pilots can't handle the autopilot kicking out, or be able to properly select the flight mode on approach; adding such a engine cutoff would be guaranteed to increase airline fatalities slightly. Even if such a device would do wonders for keeping pilots awake.
Then you'd have the secondary effect of lots more pilots on approach that haven't gotten sufficient rest. So not only might you have more crashes directly caused by the engine stoppage, but also mite crashes caused indirectly by the increased level of fatigue.
I'd say, continue to look the other way and let pilots get some shut eye at cruise altitude (in alternating turns) and have them fresh for when you really need them on final approach.
Dear friend PhotoFinish, I wonder if there can be some formal or official way for the tired pilots to take turns to doze off but NOT in cockpit, in the appropriate crew rest area. And if rest area is not there, allocate a couple of passenger seats in a 'silent zone' for the purpose. .
I don't mind the rest occurring on the flight deck. The resting pilot would be more easily available if necessary.
When rest becomes officially sanctioned then a specific rest area/seat can be built into cockpit or resting pilot could grab a seat in first class just outside of the cockpit.
For long flights where there are 3 or 4 flight crew, there are specific crew rest areas outside of the cockpit (for the extra crew when they are on rest time and not on duty). But there are always 2 pilots on duty.
When rest becomes officially sanctioned then a specific rest area/seat can be built into cockpit or resting pilot could grab a seat in first class just outside of the cockpit.
For long flights where there are 3 or 4 flight crew, there are specific crew rest areas outside of the cockpit (for the extra crew when they are on rest time and not on duty). But there are always 2 pilots on duty.
Someday pilots will get plugged in to the plane. The plane will be able to monitor the pilot, as the pilot monitors the plane. The sensors will be able to determine sleep and fatigue, and make appropriate recommendations. If the pilot at the controls is fatigued, shows signs of falling asleep, or outright falls asleep the plane could sound an audible alarm in his headset and/or zap the pilot, and note the fatigued status.
If one pilot is indicating fatigue on the pilot status, then the other pilot knows to stay alert on final.
If one pilot is indicating fatigue on the pilot status, then the other pilot knows to stay alert on final.
PhotoFinish, a great idea. Seems pretty workable and doable in a not very distant future.
All you need is some crazy guy like me BUT 40 years younger with a huge grant to develop a gadget like this !
All you need is some crazy guy like me BUT 40 years younger with a huge grant to develop a gadget like this !
There are many people working on aspects of these. There is even a large sample of Delta pilots that are being studied both with a full night's sleep and as well as intentionally fatigued.
It's only a matter of time before these kinds of useful devices/functions become available.
It's only a matter of time before these kinds of useful devices/functions become available.
You seem pretty convincing, dear friend PhotoFinish. As an after though I realized that in these days of eye readers and brain mappers it shouldn't be very difficult to build a prototype soon ! Even pattern of heart beat and ECG pattern changes when a person dozes off or goes to sleep ! Beside the already known physical changes like slumping, neck loosening or loss of hand/foot pressure and so on .
Welcome tired pilots !
Bon voyage happy flying and safe landings .
P.S.
A word of caution however. The greedy employers may tend to over work the already pilots under the excuse of power naps and alarm systems etc. !
Welcome tired pilots !
Bon voyage happy flying and safe landings .
P.S.
A word of caution however. The greedy employers may tend to over work the already pilots under the excuse of power naps and alarm systems etc. !
I would've even begin to predict a timeline fir maturation of thus technology. They're only doing the basic research now, trying to understand the vast variability between different people.
I would suggest that regulations be more lenient, not more burdensome. "look the other way" naps could be specifically allowed across the ocean/ polar route, etc.
Think of it more as an informational tool. I would think that 1) pilots would show up to work less exhausted to begin. 2) companies wouldn't routinely work pilots past the point of exhaustion. We'd get a better idea what are the limits of human ability, stop pushing pilots past that unnecessarily regularly in ways that compromise safety.
Most people don't recognize how much their capabilities are diminished with fatigue and/or under the influence of substances. The irony is that being tired (or drunk) diminishes one's perceptiveness. So the pilot is less able to perceive his or her diminished capacity exactly when the capacity is diminished.
Too often you hear stories from pilots of "not eating to fly with that person again", "glad it's over", "after ths flight, it won't be my problem".
Suggesting that there's underreporting of deficiency by the person(s) in a position to best notice - the other pilot.
Having safer operation of flights helps us all. Just the act of measuring objectively changes behaviors.
I would suggest that regulations be more lenient, not more burdensome. "look the other way" naps could be specifically allowed across the ocean/ polar route, etc.
Think of it more as an informational tool. I would think that 1) pilots would show up to work less exhausted to begin. 2) companies wouldn't routinely work pilots past the point of exhaustion. We'd get a better idea what are the limits of human ability, stop pushing pilots past that unnecessarily regularly in ways that compromise safety.
Most people don't recognize how much their capabilities are diminished with fatigue and/or under the influence of substances. The irony is that being tired (or drunk) diminishes one's perceptiveness. So the pilot is less able to perceive his or her diminished capacity exactly when the capacity is diminished.
Too often you hear stories from pilots of "not eating to fly with that person again", "glad it's over", "after ths flight, it won't be my problem".
Suggesting that there's underreporting of deficiency by the person(s) in a position to best notice - the other pilot.
Having safer operation of flights helps us all. Just the act of measuring objectively changes behaviors.