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Southwest Airlines Captain Of Flight 345 Took Command Before NY Accident: NTSB
(If this is a duplicate, I apologize). "NEW YORK -- The captain of a Southwest Airlines plane that landed on a collapsing nose gear at LaGuardia Airport took control from the first officer just 400 feet from the ground, the National Transportation Safety Board said Tuesday." (www.huffingtonpost.com) Más...Sort type: [Top] [Newest]
A Question then, Captain Duggan. Are you saying that you as PIC would "mentor" a FO in a rapidly deteriorating situation such as was occurring on that flight deck? Seems to me that trying to talk someone through stick and rudder movements in a jet that eventually struck hard enough, in a nose down attitude, hard enough to drive the gear through the E&E compartment is the wrong approach. If you cant "fathom" the situation where that can occur, maybe you are in the wrong profession. In eight years of military flying, 28 years of flying for a major airline, I have seen 1 occasion of the captain taking command in such a situation and have taken command of the aircraft myself when the situation demanded, repeat demanded, I do so. There was NO time for "gentle guidance" as you put it. However. until the actual cause comes out...I'll just address my concerns to your critical thinking skills and ask you, for your passengers sake, if the situation demands, take control, debrief the FO over a cup of coffee or a beer and let him/her take the rest of the legs as a symbol of trust.
He's just like the rest of us. We haven't been in a situation that would require us to take back control at 400'; to boot in this situation, NTSB says nose was up and all appeared normal. Captain took over, landing went to hell. His "can't fathom" is just a term to describe how incredulous the situation is. At least that's how I took it. I don't think any long term Captain would do anything to purposely endanger their pax, but this all begs a good explanation.
mike SUT, thanks for the question. Someone (gearup328) beat me to the answer. But, it is the correct answer. An unstabilized approach should never be allowed to continue into an unsafe and uncomfortable situation. This is a general "truth" and it is too early to know for certain if this was the case with SWA 345.
I should have been more precise in my language....it is difficult to not be misunderstood sometimes, in this sort of venue.
What I was trying to say was, "taking control" should have been a response only in a dire emergency situation. What I tried to point out was that a competent pilot (CA) should have seen the situation developing WELL before that point where the CA decided to grab the airplane. There was time, much earlier in the approach set-up, when advice could have been given in order to have avoided this mess. By the time it looked "that bad" to the CA, then the proper action is a GA. (we don't do enough GAs, and I've seen pilots freeze when faced with one unexpectedly, because they have a brain fart). It's odd, because it is really simple, but some people are intimidated.
BTW, I've got about the same airline (major) as you, but not the military background.
I should have been more precise in my language....it is difficult to not be misunderstood sometimes, in this sort of venue.
What I was trying to say was, "taking control" should have been a response only in a dire emergency situation. What I tried to point out was that a competent pilot (CA) should have seen the situation developing WELL before that point where the CA decided to grab the airplane. There was time, much earlier in the approach set-up, when advice could have been given in order to have avoided this mess. By the time it looked "that bad" to the CA, then the proper action is a GA. (we don't do enough GAs, and I've seen pilots freeze when faced with one unexpectedly, because they have a brain fart). It's odd, because it is really simple, but some people are intimidated.
BTW, I've got about the same airline (major) as you, but not the military background.
Tim, you hit the nail on the head!!
Thank you. I think that you "got it" as well.
Yeah, but the initial report said it didn't go to hell until the Captain took over though. I am speculating here, but if you look at the initial reports it seemed like maybe the SWA profile coupled with that particular app/runway was making her uncomfortable...
You're right about sometimes there's no room for gentle guidance, it doesn't seem like guidance was needed here...
You're right about sometimes there's no room for gentle guidance, it doesn't seem like guidance was needed here...
No sir. The command in a rapidly deteriorating situation is "GO AROUND"!!!!
BTW, this command can come from either seat. Once it is given, there's no looking back. A video I show in class is "It's OK to go around". We had an incident at Republic Airways with an ERJ-170 at CLE. The crew made 21 errors on the approach but the clincher was the PF FO over riding the Captain's order to go missed. The Captain said in a non-commanding tone "I think we should go". The FO said no and continued. The result was landing half way down the runway, in blinding snow and rolling off the end. Fortunately, no one was injured.
gearup328, This is a perfect example, thanks for sharing. There are so many instances for training in a simulator environment, for just such cases.
One of my favorite Sim training experiences was when the Instructor whispered into my ear to have a subtle impairment...this while I, in the left seat, was 'PF', just to see the 'PM' reaction during a takeoff in snowy and slippery runway conditions.
I think the Simulator is under-used (and, I realize why...the curriculum at most airlines dictates the protocols).
In ALL situations, it still comes down to CRM, and the aspect of good communication.
Much can be learnt in the simulator. Because, it is a ;earning tool, with no jeopardy.
One of my favorite Sim training experiences was when the Instructor whispered into my ear to have a subtle impairment...this while I, in the left seat, was 'PF', just to see the 'PM' reaction during a takeoff in snowy and slippery runway conditions.
I think the Simulator is under-used (and, I realize why...the curriculum at most airlines dictates the protocols).
In ALL situations, it still comes down to CRM, and the aspect of good communication.
Much can be learnt in the simulator. Because, it is a ;earning tool, with no jeopardy.
Great training example. I don't know who you are but we are on the same page. Training, training, training is the answer. Human interface. Working together. I know in the "old days" we learned from another pilot. I was #2 in the formation. I followed lead. He lead the way. Now, the sophisticated cockpits require much more. There are two or more of you. Each has a say in what is going on. Speak up. Don't just fly into the ground without telling the PF that he is screwing up!!!!
Yours is a great example.
Yours is a great example.