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Pilots Stood Down After Dispute in Cockpit
QANTAS has stood down two pilots who had a heated argument in the cockpit of a Boeing 747 jumbo on the tarmac at Dallas' international airport. Just weeks after Qantas stood down a captain for returning a positive alcohol reading, it has emerged that another captain and a second officer on a 747-400 had an argument over the take-off calculations they should be punching into the passenger jet's computer system. (www.watoday.com.au) Más...Sort type: [Top] [Newest]
Yes amahran..right on. As joe johnson noted on here "takeoff numbers". Quantas have a history of loading the machines to the edge of the margin. I hope the ATSB is invited to look into this event. In my view, given the evidence of the last 5 years, the management of this airline is questionable on day to day toutine necessities. Example: keeping a record of how much oil an engine is using. You are surprised? Oh yes...understandable.
Well soon Singapore will be doing their maintenance.
Roland- IMHO you have to do the book numbers to see what he airplane CAN do under ideal conditions- then, as with many other things,talk about it. Not anything near Balanced Field, do you take an engine fire flying because it happens at V1
+ 2 kts? Don't forget about that grey computer between your ears!
+ 2 kts? Don't forget about that grey computer between your ears!
Cruise Pilot, IRO,Second Officer. Whatever you call him, he is a pilot who is qualified on the B744 like everyone else on the flight deck.
@Stephen..
Yes. The Captain has complete authority. He is the PIC. That being said, any Captain worth a damn is always receptive to his crews' concerns. Why it degenerated to a shouting match is the question. We may never know the answer to that.
@Stephen..
Yes. The Captain has complete authority. He is the PIC. That being said, any Captain worth a damn is always receptive to his crews' concerns. Why it degenerated to a shouting match is the question. We may never know the answer to that.
Where have you been for the past 20 years? Cockpit management is not with a god in control as in the 50's & 60's... when by the way airplanes were being routinely driven into the ground with a non pro-active ("co-pilot")first officer. Cockpit management is now is a crew concept, with clear delineation of duties, and with redundancy purposely built in. The "complete authority" is in cockpit science, hopefully with a captain that is a good manager of people, procedures and cockpit science. Anything that degrades to a heated argument is a complete failure and rests smack on the captain's shoulders! He should be fired.
@Robert, You hit the nail on the head. Debate yes, but debate to find out where a mistake in calculations were made. Not debate to the point that you almost come to blows. We are human and even Captains make mistakes, especially with mathematics.
Robert, I hear what you are saying and generally agree. I was a co-pilot in the '60's and we didn't "routinely" drive airplanes into the ground... well, besides some of my less spectacular landings! Even back then the good Captains led their crews the way CLR recommends and the bad ones didn't change a lot after attending the class! From my observations, it was generally the weaker Captains who were the most authorotarian.
The PIC has ultimate authority and responsibility - but that doesn't mean that the SIC is there to simply occupy a seat. Toolguy said the SIC can debate, but not to the point that "you almost come to blows." First of all, it takes two to tango. The PIC and SIC must have both been pretty argumentative for this situation to occur.
The SIC must speak up if he has a problem with what the PIC is doing. There is nothing wrong with this practice whatsoever... In fact, many accidents would never have happened if the SIC spoke up.. Such was the case with the two 747's in Tenarife. It was the broken communication, and the swollen ego of KLM's chief pilot that caused that accident. And there are many many more examples - I just figured I would discuss this one since it was the worst aviation accident of all time - and it was due to a lack of CRM in the cockpit.
I would rather hear of delayed or canceled flights ALL THE TIME rather than another crash. While we may never know what was the issue that day - if the SIC was standing his ground to the point of a heated argument - it most likely was a safety of flight issue. If the SIC thinks something is dangerous he MUST speak up. If he is not listened to, he should relieve himself of flying duties. A captain fudging numbers for instance would not have a leg to stand on if the SIC walked off the job, called in sick and the facts were to come out. I don't care what position you are, PIC, SIC, FE - if you feel someone will do an unsafe thing you must stop it. At least you will be alive.
As a captain I never once failed to listen to my SIC. The way I saw it, he was my redundancy and could be catching something that I have missed. I would always err on the side of caution - something all pilots should do - but they don't always. I flew with strong SIC's and weak SIC's - but you always listen to what they have to say. The PIC's extra experience comes in when a decision is made. But if the captain makes a decision that the SIC cant live with, he should call in sick. This does not happen on an everyday basis.
Flying for a regional carrier I was paired with a captain who was just served with divorce papers three hours before flying with me. As the SIC I felt that he was not safe to fly. He scoffed and yelled as we pushed back from the gate. He was rushing and making mistakes. I applied the parking break, undid my seat belt and walked off the plane. He was FORCED to listen to my concerns. He called in sick as a result... despite the fact that he was the PIC - the decision was not his to make. Either I would call in sick or he would. If I called in sick I would be called to the chief pilots office where I would be forced to tell them what really happened. If he called in sick he could control the conversation in the office. He chose the latter.
It is important not to confuse PIC responsibilities with the powers and responsibilities of the SIC. In many cases they are the last line of defense before an accident. In some cases the SIC causes an accident - even though the PIC has authority - the SIC can retract flaps at a critical moment such as a wind shear - and cause an accident. Both pilots are there for a reason- lets not forget that.
The SIC must speak up if he has a problem with what the PIC is doing. There is nothing wrong with this practice whatsoever... In fact, many accidents would never have happened if the SIC spoke up.. Such was the case with the two 747's in Tenarife. It was the broken communication, and the swollen ego of KLM's chief pilot that caused that accident. And there are many many more examples - I just figured I would discuss this one since it was the worst aviation accident of all time - and it was due to a lack of CRM in the cockpit.
I would rather hear of delayed or canceled flights ALL THE TIME rather than another crash. While we may never know what was the issue that day - if the SIC was standing his ground to the point of a heated argument - it most likely was a safety of flight issue. If the SIC thinks something is dangerous he MUST speak up. If he is not listened to, he should relieve himself of flying duties. A captain fudging numbers for instance would not have a leg to stand on if the SIC walked off the job, called in sick and the facts were to come out. I don't care what position you are, PIC, SIC, FE - if you feel someone will do an unsafe thing you must stop it. At least you will be alive.
As a captain I never once failed to listen to my SIC. The way I saw it, he was my redundancy and could be catching something that I have missed. I would always err on the side of caution - something all pilots should do - but they don't always. I flew with strong SIC's and weak SIC's - but you always listen to what they have to say. The PIC's extra experience comes in when a decision is made. But if the captain makes a decision that the SIC cant live with, he should call in sick. This does not happen on an everyday basis.
Flying for a regional carrier I was paired with a captain who was just served with divorce papers three hours before flying with me. As the SIC I felt that he was not safe to fly. He scoffed and yelled as we pushed back from the gate. He was rushing and making mistakes. I applied the parking break, undid my seat belt and walked off the plane. He was FORCED to listen to my concerns. He called in sick as a result... despite the fact that he was the PIC - the decision was not his to make. Either I would call in sick or he would. If I called in sick I would be called to the chief pilots office where I would be forced to tell them what really happened. If he called in sick he could control the conversation in the office. He chose the latter.
It is important not to confuse PIC responsibilities with the powers and responsibilities of the SIC. In many cases they are the last line of defense before an accident. In some cases the SIC causes an accident - even though the PIC has authority - the SIC can retract flaps at a critical moment such as a wind shear - and cause an accident. Both pilots are there for a reason- lets not forget that.
Whoa cowboy. The article didn't say all that. The article stopped short of saying what they were arguing about. Maybe they had both been drinking too close to push back. Don't know, can't say. It had to be serious though for both of them to be relieved.
By the way, it's hard to deplane after push back. Even the last trainer I was in needed a ladder that had been taken away. It's been a while since I exited an aircraft via the wing.
By the way, it's hard to deplane after push back. Even the last trainer I was in needed a ladder that had been taken away. It's been a while since I exited an aircraft via the wing.
Mark -
The CRJ (all versions) has a built in staircase on main door. All you have to do is open the door and the steps are built in. Im not sure if you were trying to say I was making up a story, or saying your plane is bigger than mine - but in either case - you have your answer.
I didn't read the article, what I was reading was the comments on this forum, and responding the to handful of things I saw that needed to be addressed. I believe that those who are interested in aviation would find the information I put on here very informative and interesting. And clear up the misconception about the POWER of the PIC over his crew.
And in once case, Even set one guy straight who sounded way too much like a right seat captain. Something that is a real pain in the ass for the captains he will/is flying with. If the way he wrote it was by accident that would be one thing, but if in fact he meant it, trust me, the captains he is flying with will thank me for making him think about himself critically going forward.
Like yourself I use my real name - I don't believe in hiding behind a computer screen. I have 22 years of aviation experience and I am willing to share what little knowledge I have openly ;). If there was something I offended you with, please let me know - perhaps I wrote something that was taken the wrong way. If I owe you an apology for something - let me know. I actually said in my third paragraph second sentence "we may never know what was the issue that day" - but I gave the readers of this forum some information as to what it could be - and why the SIC is not just occupying a seat - and that despite the PIC's ultimate responsibility for the flight - the SIC can do things if necessary. I then gave some examples. Thats all.
Let me know If I owe you an apology
Jason
The CRJ (all versions) has a built in staircase on main door. All you have to do is open the door and the steps are built in. Im not sure if you were trying to say I was making up a story, or saying your plane is bigger than mine - but in either case - you have your answer.
I didn't read the article, what I was reading was the comments on this forum, and responding the to handful of things I saw that needed to be addressed. I believe that those who are interested in aviation would find the information I put on here very informative and interesting. And clear up the misconception about the POWER of the PIC over his crew.
And in once case, Even set one guy straight who sounded way too much like a right seat captain. Something that is a real pain in the ass for the captains he will/is flying with. If the way he wrote it was by accident that would be one thing, but if in fact he meant it, trust me, the captains he is flying with will thank me for making him think about himself critically going forward.
Like yourself I use my real name - I don't believe in hiding behind a computer screen. I have 22 years of aviation experience and I am willing to share what little knowledge I have openly ;). If there was something I offended you with, please let me know - perhaps I wrote something that was taken the wrong way. If I owe you an apology for something - let me know. I actually said in my third paragraph second sentence "we may never know what was the issue that day" - but I gave the readers of this forum some information as to what it could be - and why the SIC is not just occupying a seat - and that despite the PIC's ultimate responsibility for the flight - the SIC can do things if necessary. I then gave some examples. Thats all.
Let me know If I owe you an apology
Jason
@ Jason:
You owe me nothing. Your opinion and point of view are yours and therefore sacred. A bunch of us, sounds like you too, have risked life and limb to make sure of that. I didn't see a reference to a CRJ in your, may I call it rant, and it's been a while since I deplaned with air stairs. The size of my airplane or what ever has little to do with talent, knowledge or the ability to apply both
quickly. All that said I presumed, since this is a discussion about the article written that you were commenting on the article you read. There are dangers in commenting on opinions with no or different basis than the article. It starts an entire new thread of discussion. There are enough topics from the writing.
You are touching on legal and moral issues with your comments. I asked the question in another post does the FO have the right indeed the responsibility to legally wrench command from the PIC at times? Since so much of aviation law is based on maritime law I suspect yes, but I don't know without a doubt. That part of the FAR's has specific case interest. The days of absolute authority began to wane at Tenerife. Arrogance and one man's concerns can't be allowed to control the destinies of so many other people yet discipline has it's place and necessity as well.
Again, the situation must have been serious, either legally or from a company PR point of view to stand down, strange turn of phrase, both the PIC and the FO or SIC, as you term it. It's not an inexpensive change for the company and they would not have done it on a whim. But the article was not well written and maybe should never have been published.
No offense taken. If I were thin skinned I would use a screen name.
You owe me nothing. Your opinion and point of view are yours and therefore sacred. A bunch of us, sounds like you too, have risked life and limb to make sure of that. I didn't see a reference to a CRJ in your, may I call it rant, and it's been a while since I deplaned with air stairs. The size of my airplane or what ever has little to do with talent, knowledge or the ability to apply both
quickly. All that said I presumed, since this is a discussion about the article written that you were commenting on the article you read. There are dangers in commenting on opinions with no or different basis than the article. It starts an entire new thread of discussion. There are enough topics from the writing.
You are touching on legal and moral issues with your comments. I asked the question in another post does the FO have the right indeed the responsibility to legally wrench command from the PIC at times? Since so much of aviation law is based on maritime law I suspect yes, but I don't know without a doubt. That part of the FAR's has specific case interest. The days of absolute authority began to wane at Tenerife. Arrogance and one man's concerns can't be allowed to control the destinies of so many other people yet discipline has it's place and necessity as well.
Again, the situation must have been serious, either legally or from a company PR point of view to stand down, strange turn of phrase, both the PIC and the FO or SIC, as you term it. It's not an inexpensive change for the company and they would not have done it on a whim. But the article was not well written and maybe should never have been published.
No offense taken. If I were thin skinned I would use a screen name.
The FAR's have nothing regarding mutiny. It is not a subject that is addressed. The only discussion that I have ever seen was that if the captain becomes incapacitated the FO is to secure the captain away from the controls and as a result becomes the new Captain for the duration of the flight.
There are times however that FO's have taken command of an aircraft and relieved the captain of their command with the help of the rest of the crew. There was a recent situation in the US when the captain started saying weird comments such as - I hope you understand what I am about to do is for Jesus" - the captain was going to crash the plane - the crew removed and subdued the captain and the FO took over - as he should have. Clearly there was no grey area there. It is in these Non grey areas that an FO can take command of an aircraft.
There is an example of an FO attempting mutiny that ended in pure comedy. A new FO and a check airman were doing the new FO's IOE (initial operating experience) - and the captain briefed the category 2 approach to lower than standard minimums. The FO said "I'm going on the record that a DA of less than 200 feet is unsafe". The training captain reminded the FO that it was taught in ground school, in the simulator and they have approval by the FAA to fly CAT2 approaches. The FO. Then said " by the powers vested in me by the FAA - I hereby relieve you of command sir". The training captain shot the approach as briefed - and they landed at their home base (I forgot where it was). They walked into the chief pilots office and was fired for being a comete idiot. What did he think he was - an ordained minister at a wedding? "by the power vested in me?". Lol. This is an example of what not to do! Lol
There are times however that FO's have taken command of an aircraft and relieved the captain of their command with the help of the rest of the crew. There was a recent situation in the US when the captain started saying weird comments such as - I hope you understand what I am about to do is for Jesus" - the captain was going to crash the plane - the crew removed and subdued the captain and the FO took over - as he should have. Clearly there was no grey area there. It is in these Non grey areas that an FO can take command of an aircraft.
There is an example of an FO attempting mutiny that ended in pure comedy. A new FO and a check airman were doing the new FO's IOE (initial operating experience) - and the captain briefed the category 2 approach to lower than standard minimums. The FO said "I'm going on the record that a DA of less than 200 feet is unsafe". The training captain reminded the FO that it was taught in ground school, in the simulator and they have approval by the FAA to fly CAT2 approaches. The FO. Then said " by the powers vested in me by the FAA - I hereby relieve you of command sir". The training captain shot the approach as briefed - and they landed at their home base (I forgot where it was). They walked into the chief pilots office and was fired for being a comete idiot. What did he think he was - an ordained minister at a wedding? "by the power vested in me?". Lol. This is an example of what not to do! Lol
As I figured. Te maritime model us valid. I never thought about mutiny, but actually it is addressed, but as an issue when a aircraft is being hijacked, so somewhat disguised.
There is a lot to consider when usurping the PIC or any commander. First is who is going to perform the duties that you are abandoning. I'm not typed in a CRJ but I'm not sure I'd want to find myself on short final in a 737 or a C130 without a qualified assistant for lack of a better word. The front office is wide enough that I can't reach enough switches to "turn the motors on" never mind change some of the displays. Of course maybe the prettiest FA could be enlisted like in the movies. Gimme back my DC3
There is a lot to consider when usurping the PIC or any commander. First is who is going to perform the duties that you are abandoning. I'm not typed in a CRJ but I'm not sure I'd want to find myself on short final in a 737 or a C130 without a qualified assistant for lack of a better word. The front office is wide enough that I can't reach enough switches to "turn the motors on" never mind change some of the displays. Of course maybe the prettiest FA could be enlisted like in the movies. Gimme back my DC3
I'd love to imagine what exactly was being "debated"