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Novedades y titularesSullenberger: 'We Need Experienced Pilots'

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Sullenberger: 'We Need Experienced Pilots'

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Captain Chelsey "Sully" Sullenberger has gone on the record as saying that new rules requiring pilots to have 1,500 hours in their logbooks before becoming an airline pilot are on the mark, and should not be changed because of a supposed looming pilot shortage. (www.aero-news.net) Más...

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rdzr1
rdzr1 14
I think his opinions are influenced by his experiences at USAir. While hours give a pilot experience in the environment, we all know they are no indication of pilot skill or proficiency. Ask anyone who's been involved in the training and checking of line pilots at an airline. Some guys are aces, some barely get by even with 10,000 hours of experience. It's all about forcing the airlines to pay more to obtain "qualified" applicants and pushing the wage union agenda. The airline world has had low time pilots in the cockpit since the DC-3 days. FO's were apprentice pilots under the training and supervison of the autocratic Captain until they too made Captain and then trained their apprentices. For years, the regionals used to promote FO's to Captain in less than a year in aircraft like ATR-42's, Shorts 360's and Dash 8's with maybe 2000 total time. Military pilots are turned loose in fighters with 300 hours and even members of the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels often have less than 1500 hours. Low time is nothing new. The pilots who are trained well and who are committed to their professional development have good careers regardless of how much flight time they had when they got hired. In the case of Sully's ditching, I don't want to take anything away from the crew but I don't think a diffent FO would have changed to outcome very much. In the short time they had to deal with the engine failure, the outcome was as much about luck as it was skill. Make it a different airport environment, a dark night or low IFR and this could have had a much different result. I personally don't like the crew being made out as heroes and this "miracle on the Hudson" b.s. They did what they were trained to do and by the circumstances had a good result. Sully is a good line pilot and a professional aviator but his opinion should carry no more weight than the thousands of other professional pilots out there flying every day. Bottom line, this is a bad law forced on the FAA by a Conrgresa influenced by a very vocal group of family memmbers of victims of the Colgan accident. They are well meaning but don't have a clue what they are doing. The 1500 hour rule will change nothing as far as safety goes and just live on to be an ill conceived, useless and meaningless rule.
im4point
Chris Murray 5
Both pilots at Colgan had 1500 hours when they buried a plane. Both pilots of the AA plane that crashed in LIT had ATP's. It's not about hours or having an ATP. It's about training!
preacher1
preacher1 2
Anybody can screw up at any given time. I lost several good friend in the LIT crash. seem sto me that one of the biggest things there was that they missed spoiler deployment on a we trunway and overshot. As I said, anybody can screw up and I think they found that fatigue had something to do with it too. Mad dogs land a little hot anyway.
wasclywabbit
John Berry 4
In fairness Sullenberger did mention that the airlines should offer wages and working conditions that will attract qualified pilots.

After watching my stepson battle with the costs involved to gain the hours and training need to make the grade it appears from a layman's perspective that the primary issue for new pilots is that there isn't a reasonable return on their investment based on new pilot's wages vs. college and or training costs. When a physician racks up $250K or more in student loans they know that they will be able to pay those dollars back in a reasonable time and have an acceptable living standard. For a new pilot who is faced with monstrous student debt and the reality of living in a shared apartment with 8 of your closest friends just to have your dream job, the dream evaporates pretty quickly. Apprenticeships used to be a relationship whereby the apprentice exchanged acceptance of low wages and sweat equity for training and experience from the master. In the airline industry it appears that the airlines want to apprentice to pay for most of their own training and yet still have to accept pitiful wages in exchange for additional experience. It's a business equation that really doesn't make much sense to me.
DAL498
DAL498 11
I've lost respect for this man...The 1500 hour rule is ruining me. As a college student at UND, it is already difficult paying for my education let alone getting my very expensive ratings needed to become an airline pilot. The 1500 rule is going to ruin aviation. Less and less people will find aviation appealing and we are going to find it difficult finding motivated pilots who want to work in a hostile industry for low pay and a 1500 hour requirement! "EXPERIENCED" pilots aren't made by the quantity of the hours but the QUALITY of the hours...
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 3
Like cheefpilot said "you are young and you can still do something else"...I started out when I was around 20 and even then I was struggling with the cost because I couldn't find someone to loan me the money to finish up so I was basically paying out of pocket...Since then I've gotten married and we have two wonderful children...The sad part is I currently make more than most regional pilots fueling trucks and doing trailer repairs and really can't justify spending upwards of 35K-50K for a job that is not going offer me a descent return right off the bat. I have a friend who just finished with ATP, we are both 29, the difference is he is trying to gain hours while I am working for a company that is pretty stable and gives us yearly cost of living raises and I am not going to be screwed if they raise the hours to 1500...No one here is saying that you shouldn't follow your dream but it is important to know the facts...They say there is a shortage coming but look at the current numbers of instructors and furloughed/ pilots flying in other countries that will be coming back home...Also look at the pilots in the military that will potentially be coming out over the next few years. In short the market in my opinion is already flooded....I wish you all the luck in the world and I pray that you accomplish your goal but just remember you can always start towards another profession and fly for fun.
cheefpilot
cheefpilot 2
If you already understand that this is a "hostile industry with low pay" then why not quit and do something else now while you are still young and can easily do something different so you don't suffer from making such a poor career choice?
DAL498
DAL498 1
keep going through life with that mentality bud. Go on. Keep it up
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
I don't think he's being sarcastic, just giving some sound advice. You're young, and unless you really want to stick it out, you could easily make a career change and be ahead of the game...
cheefpilot
cheefpilot 1
Just trying to give you some useful advice. If want to continue down this career path go ahead but be ready for some disappointment. A friend of mine and I got into flying at the same time several years ago, he became an airline pilot and I decided to go corporate. He is now a 35 year old regional captain with 2 kids and gets to be home with his family about a week each month while spending the remainder of his time in a hotel or a crashpad with 8 other guys. If thats what makes you happy then go for it. I do agree with you about the quality of hours being important, I haven't been able to tell much difference between a guy with 500 hours instructing in a 172 and another that has 1500 doing the same thing. Maybe if they had fired the colgan guy after busting his checkride we wouldn't be talking about this 1500 hour rule, congress should look into why the airline let him keep his job instead of making the 1500 hours rule.
HunterTS4
Toby Sharp 0
It will ruin GENERAL AVIATION. After this most will join military and get out and go straight to the airlines
HunterTS4
Toby Sharp 0
disregard my above comment
JonathanZ
Quick question to all those out there who've made it - if the 1500 hrs rule goes into effect, nonmilitary pilots who are just getting their Private Pilot certificates, as well as many students, will likely fall out of the industry as they see little point in continuing to work for an absurdly high number of hours so that they can make less money than the people packaging the food, if they can even get hired. As a young, relatively new Private Pilot (2010), with only about 65 hrs to my credit (but over 150 flights, many in gliders), does anyone have any recommendations on how to build up a few hundred hours without building up a lot of debt? And do you have anything to say on the future of the industry?
rdzr1
rdzr1 2
One last comment, with the exception of the corporate flying world, pilot wages are controlled by what the airline charges for flying the people or the boxes. You can't change the wage scales until the income side of the equation changes and that unfortunately is under the control of the retail marketplace. Pilot hiring is also ruled by a similar supply and demand equation. When the airlines need pilots and the demand exceeds the supply, the hours and standards to be hired will drop. It will be interesting to see what happens when (and if) a pilot supply shortage occurs. I'll bet the majors will be hiring applicants with 300 hours.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Jonathan, not sure about you building up hours, but read all the comments in this column. There is plenty said on the status of and future of the industry.Just because he is a national figure and has the general public's ear right now, doesn't mean that Sully's opinion is any better than the next man. He is on equal footing in this forum and all I will say that he is entitled to his opinion. I don't have to agree with it. I saw a different world back in the day. I was blessed with a good corporate job flying big iron, from which I am now retired. The industry is not the same today as it was back then. All I can tell you guys is good luck.
JonathanZ
The recurring point here is that the industry seems to be going downhill, and will go downhill faster when the 1500 hr rule is in effect. Something not discussed is, how can I build up the hours required without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars? In other words, where can a low-time pilot like me build up time and experience, and maybe get paid for it in the meantime?

In regards to your earlier comments:
Regarding crashes, it would seem that many pilots forget to use checklists, sometimes claiming that 'memory serves me better' (although memorization is a good idea anyway). An instructor of mine once said, "It's not a checklist; it's a do-list." It would also appear that the old stick-and-rudder skills are disappearing. The Colgan Air flight might not have crashed had the pilot been ingrained with the knowledge [old habits appear when fatigued] that during icing conditions, the speeds used must be higher, and in any event, you can't pull back on the stick while at a critical angle of attack (i.e. stalling). Supposedly, the Airbus crash off Brazil a couple of years ago had several minutes of that (although I have my own guesses as to what caused the crash, since it seems to follow the TSA crash off Long Island very well). I've heard of quite a few other crashes where flaps weren't retracted, landing gear wasn't lowered, canopy doors weren't secured, fuel tanks weren't switched, etc. because the pilot forgot to do so, even though these things are written down for a reason.
Regarding Capt. Sullenberger, while I have a lot of respect for him, and he's a hero, everyone seems to forget that he had a rating in gliders; engine failures were not an emergency for him, just a routine glider flight, albeit in something weighing a little more. The textbook water landing was perfect - wings level the whole time, good approach, and luck that both the stretch of water was clear of boat traffic and that it played out the way that it did. Compare this to a few other cases where a wing dips and the plane ground-loops. This shouldn't detract from the recognition that he received, but is worth mentioning; after all, he represents GA to the world. [This is also why I don't agree that he should take part in this debate, as even though he is on equal footing, his words carry more weight to the outside world. His opinion is his opinion, but because of his position, it may become public opinion.]

Any thoughts on any of this?

And you mention that it isn't the same as it was in the past. How has it changed, and how was it like back when you were climbing up to Commercial, and from there to ATP?

By the way, thanks for commenting.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Well, I was very blessed on getting my tickets and into my job. Of course I saw all the deregulation stuff and witnessed that wringing out in Airlines, Rail, and Truck. The biggest change I guess I saw was in operation itself as they started going to the hub/spoke concept. Made sense, all was cool.Most regionals at that time, at least early on, were house owned and that allowed a clear path for both seniority and promotion. Not so now as all of them are contracted, except Eagle but it will probably go that way,and for the wages being paid, it is slave labor. The guy driving the county road grader out here in front of my house makes more money than most RJ captains, and I'm not demeaning the grader man,he's my friend, just comparing skill levels. They will still hire out of the RJ's but your time,seniority wise,won't start until hired. You change companies.Used to be a pretty clear path out of the military but now the money situation has changed that. There are still some from there but not near as many. A man could get a job at some regionals with lower hours and things not be as bad, and that would allow working, while building time/experience. 1500 hours, without the experience, is not going to give the results they want. Regarding Sully; because he did a good thing he has the public ear now and an avenue in which to vent his personal feelings, right or wrong; that said, he is on an equal footing in this forum and all will not agree with him. He did a fine thing, and yes he was both good and lucky/blessed, but as one said here, he did what he was trained to do as would most that speak here. You do your best in a situation like that and that is all you can do.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I'm going to add here that like a lot of other crafts, there was an apprenticeship type concept and some stucture for entry level pilots. What is not out there either, at least widespread, is a college or some institute of higher learning that is offering flying as an accredited/degree program, to where student loans could be qualified for and have a pipeline to the airlines and corporate flying for a job out of school.
hlowden
hlowden 3
The problem is that guys feel entitled to a jet job because they "payed their dues" - forking out obscene amounts of cash to flight schools doesn't entitle you to anything. Even at 1500 hours, there is only so much you have experienced. Have you worked the radar to find out where is the best way to penetrate a line of storms? How much ice have you flown into? Is that cloud formation ahead dangerous? I don't mind teaching a right seater new things, but I am not a CFI in the left seat. I expect a basic level of knowledge BEYOND the flows and systems. You passed a simulator checkride - big deal, the simulator is a game anyway that you learn to play - it is not the real airplane.

I expect the right seater to bring SOMETHING to the cockpit and at 500 or so hours, there is only so much you can bring. Flows and system knowledge is expected and anyone, pilot or non-pilot, can learn those things. When I was hired as an airline FO, I had just over 1500 hours. Of that, I was a CFI for 3 years (the last year I flew part time on a Citation) and then 1 year as an FO on a Sabreliner 65. Did I want a jet job at 500 hours? You bet. Did I think it was unfair that the hiring minimums everywhere were SO high? Yep. But I got my ratings a few at a time, never took out loans, and was happy wherever I was at the time because I actually enjoy flying. Looking back, I didn't know half of what I thought I did.

I had a friend of mine who was flying with a 500 hour FO going to New York at night in the snow. It was the FO's leg and when it was time for the approach brief, he told the captain that maybe he should land since he hadn't seen snow. My buddy told him not to worry - he said it's like Star Wars. The FO then said what he meant was he was from Florida and had never seen snow EVER, anytime in his life. Wow. Wonder what the people in back would have thought about that?
golferj28
I agree that some sort of minimum should be established for hiring first officers. I can not say that i agree with the 1500 hour rule. I think that number is just a bit of a far stretch for those trying to make it to the flight deck. Offering more money may help with getting some pilots to fill the slots that are going to be open once we see the retirements. I know for a fact that with the 1500 hour rule many may not decide to continue down the aviation path. I am one of those pilots trying to make it to the flight deck and have invested a lot of money and can not keep paying for every flight hour i earn up to 1500. WIth this rule your going to see a decrease in pilot training which will in turn eliminate the flight instructor role which is the next step after commercial. Just my thoughts.
HunterTS4
Toby Sharp 1
I to am one of these aspiring pilots who will be swept under the rug if this is implemented. Sullenberger seems divided becuase he takes young eagles flying all the time, but at the same time is an advocate on safety, which we all should be....He is going to be making it harder for the kiddos he is trying to introduce to flying in the first place.
zcolescott
Next question. For those in the Air Force, maybe you can enlighten me. Out of extreme curiosity, what is the minimum amount of flight hours required (if any) that you could potentially pilot (left or right seat, it matters not) a bomber carrying a nuclear device??
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Well on the flip side; if people stop investing in flight training and this shortage does come to be (which I doubt) maybe the airlines will start hiring off the street again...It happened once in history and I am pretty sure they wouldn't mind signing people to a 5 yr. non-union training/ job contract.
BluegrassFlyer
Randy Michel 1
I have to disagree with Sully some. Based on what I've learned from my years in the industry, and from friends and family members that are seasoned pros, numbers don't matter as much one's aptitude for flying the aircraft and their decision making does. That is where you can tell if there is experience and competence. The reason hours shouldn't be the primary issue is because some nutcase could easily pencilwhip his/her log book and falsify flights and times. I've heard of a few pilots in my area doing such a thing and then go on and get flying jobs. Its disturbing. Flying is expensive and that is the big problem causing bottlenecks in getting new pilots flying, and building actual experience. Making higher minimums just screws things up even more and knocks the ones who are doing it honestly out of a chance at a flying job in the future. If an airline wants to put "qualified people" in their aircraft, they should do a rigorous audit of a person's logbooks, add sim time and improve CRM training. I don't know if intensive psychological screening plays a role in an air carrier's hiring practices, but it should be added if it isn't already.
jbermo
Passenger UAV's will solve the problem by the end of this century. Sure, there will be incidents and accidents, but at low marginal levels.
hobulheinrik
hobulheinrik 1
Quality.. not quantity... This is going to do is promote flying in junk operations that hardly pay a dime. As a student we are paying quite a bit for a quality education that now will leave us qualified for what?
preacher1
preacher1 2
That is exactly what it will do. Supposedly, when one leaves flight training, he has a ticket in hand has never seen the cckpit of a CRJ, let alone anything bigger. There are those that can sit down and be a part of that aircraft and there are those that would struggle every time they sat down. That second guy may get a job just because he has hours and the 1st one can't even be considered,. That's crap.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
"ol Preach, I'll second that. In my 14 years commercial, I have seen them all. I'll take a good "stick" and situational awareness anytime. Flying skills count when the s*** hits the fan like Sully. In training, I have used BUF and LIT and also an accident at CLE as examples of how not being aware, taking chances, going against everything you were taught, led to an accident. BUF was a combination of both absolutely no situational awareness and poor flying skills killing everybody. Watching the video and reading the transcript gives me shivers. That Captain should never have been a pilot. I think the solution will be that the airlines will have to take a pilot right out of school and train in the equipment in exchange for a contract. Ab Initio training is what it will come down to. Airlines will have to pass on the cost in the ticket price. This is what the Air Force did for me. I took an oath and signed a minimum 4 year contract(that was extended every time I changed aircraft). No regrets. Tax payers paid for my 52 weeks of flight school. Airlines should do the same.
preacher1
preacher1 2
It will happen, probably too late for the generation wanting to fly now, and that is unfortunate, but life is not fair. There are many that have been caught in a gap and ahead of their time. Best advice I could give a young man right now is to try and get their tickets and all the ratings they can, and do it for GA but look at something else for a career. That way if something does happen, they'll be ready, but can make a living in between times.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
I flew a single seat F-102 in the USAF with 350TT. Depends on your training and the mission. All weather, formation, weapons delivery rolled into one. If you made it through flight school near the top of your class, they figured you could do it.
zcolescott
And sorry, trying to make the point that it's really a quality vs. quantity argument here. During my humble 750 hours TT is included over 400 hours cross country time, training on the CRJ, unrecorded time in CRJ, A320, and B757 Level-D devices, FMS training, and actual Turbine Flight Time PIC. Now I'm unqualified to be a F/O I guess. Good thing I've got back up plans already working out for me.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
The only way that the FAA would be able to successfully audit everyones logs would be to implement electronic logging...I tried to be as honest as I could but like you said quit a few people float their numbers....If the hobbs says 2.5-2.8 guess what; that person is probably going to log 3.
bbabis
bbabis 1
Aircraft accidents are at low marginal levels now! They just get sensationalized and politicians use it for the ol' we're looking out for you publicity statements and knee-jerk reactions. If they were really interested in looking out for the public, they would seriously look into the annual slaughter on our roads. Its equal to a seats full 747 crashing and killing everyone onboard every third day. They have ignored that forever because infringing on americans driving habits will not get votes.
preacher1
preacher1 1
That's my purpose in asking the question below, 1500 hrs in what???? I haven't read the thing word for word Zach, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it just specifies total hours, rather than type doesn't it? I mean I'd rather have a right seat with 250 hours and some good actual turbine time than have him come off of say a C421, never having seen the cockpit of any big iron but that is my convoluted understanding of it at this time.
BluegrassFlyer
Randy Michel 1
Oh I'm not talking rounding numbers, these guys created flights that never happened, and had times in aircraft they never set foot in.
zcolescott
Fairly certain you are correct. Unfortunately some people are going to be lost in the shuffle on this one...it's the way of things. Doesn't make it suck any less. What gets me the most though is the federal government trying to fix a problem that didn't exist rather than addressing the real issues of safety.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
that's just being stupid
BluegrassFlyer
Randy Michel 1
One of the guys was 32 at the time and flew a Gulfstream. For the insurance he claimed he had 10,500+ hours TT, 1,500 actual instrument time, and had 100 hours of Gulstream time despite never having flown one SIC prior to getting issued a PIC type rating in it. He had zero airline time, zero military time.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
wow....that's just brave
BluegrassFlyer
Randy Michel 2
He was a good 5-6,000 hours off. The math doesn't add up based on when he started flying and the kind of flying he did up until then.
cheefpilot
cheefpilot 1
Would this guy happen to be from the Houston area?
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I was wondering the same thing...Pacific Jet's GV is what I'm thinking...
BluegrassFlyer
Randy Michel 1
No this happened in WV, centering around a G3 for a company no longer in business.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
I wonder why?????...lol....somebody (the one guy there that actually had a legal logbook) probably blew the whistle.
BluegrassFlyer
Randy Michel 1
Actually the owners ran the company into the ground, spending it on an island and other personal items. The one with the illegal logbook was the fair-haired boy of one of the executives and an excellent manipulator. Those two got one of the other pilots fired because that guy blew the whistle.
bbabis
bbabis 1
Let me say, I'm disappointed in Capt. Sullenberger. He is no promoter of aviation. His statement that "the specter of a regional airline pilot shortage is a "myth" perpetuated by the airlines to allow them to offer lower pay" is laughable. The supply and demand curve states that reduced supply causes higher demand therefore higher pay. His real reason for his stance is deeper and another discussion. Thank you for your fine career Captain but please put the soap box away now.

Congress once again took it upon themselves to muddle in an area that they have no knowledge or experience in and once again have screwed things up. They created the CAB, later to become the FAA, to regulate aviation. Congress' 1500 hr rule is pure politics and safety was a convenient excuse. Since we are moving toward cockpits with zero experience in them (UAVs), I fail to rationalize what putting arbitrary hours on humans does. As many other posters have stated, safety has very little to do with hours. It has everything to do with APTITUDE, ATTITUDE, and TRAINING. Its what's between your ears, not what's in your log book. I've flown with 100 hr pilots that I would trust my family to. I've also flown with 10,000+ hr pilots that have no business in a cockpit. No magic number of hours guarantees that you will have experienced everything but with A,A,&T you will more than likely make the correct decisions when a new experience presents itself. I feel sorry for young pilots wanting to pursue a great career path. Congress has thrown a significant obstacle in your path solely for their political gain. I now step off my soap box.
airclaxon1
Paul Claxon 1
Bla Bla Bla,,,,,bbabis You really don't know what you are talking about !
bbabis
bbabis 1
Paul, That was a contrite reply that gave me no indication what you disagreed with. Either way, always stay safe and may the wind be always on your tail. Merry Christmas!

Preacher, thanks for jumping in but as you know our skin gets pretty thick after so many years. I hope to join you in retirement shortly and would not have done anything differently. May safety and the wind follow you on your travels also. Merry Christmas!
preacher1
preacher1 2
Well, as far as pulling rank, his ATP trumps your commercial so he is not totally unlerned. Personall, I think he is right on, especially in his comment about flying with 100 and 10000 hour pilots
preacher1
preacher1 2
Ya'll have a Merry Christmas also and a safe and prosperous New Year
indy2001
indy2001 1
An answer that is often overlooked in these discussions is 'ab initio' training. A contract is signed specifying that the airline will train an aspiring pilot in exchange for a specified number of years of employment by that airline. It's worked elsewhere, why not here?
abqscan
abqscan 1
According to Sully, if I fly my 172 in a circle for 1500 hours, I can finally be considered a professional pilot. Whew, I thought I would actually have to learn something in them flying hours... Quality vs Quantity!
zcolescott
You DO know that there has been an initiative for this over the past several years, right? Both Boeing and CAE Aviation Training have been working on their own programs since at least 2009...maybe before.
preacher1
preacher1 1
All well and good but isn't that 1500 hours going to rear it's head in there if the FAA doen't allow some kind of training exception, or am I missing something there?
zcolescott
The MPL Program either way will require some sort of special sigh off from the FAA as it is completely different thinking for the US any way you look at it.
zcolescott
Sorry, I started reading this reply all wrong. MPL and ab initio are two completely different things. Either way, completely different thinking for the US and its airlines.
preacher1
preacher1 2
The military has done it for years with Doctors as have several others, but you are correct, it will be out of the box thinking for the Airlines until they realize there is a need and then somebody will look like a superstar for thinking of it. A story comes to mind a few years ago here in Arkansas and they were wanting to build a new Expressway bridge over the Arkansas river at LIT. All kinds of objections as a navigation hazard surfaced and all. There were all kinds of grandiose plans and meetings/wonderings as to how to prevent this. Some little Coast Guard ensign spoke up and said "why not just put a buoy out there in place of the pier and see how many hit it." They did, nobody hit it in 3 months, he got promoted and they built the I440 bridge. It was out of the box thinking for most until common sense arrived and it will happen with the Airlines, I just don't know when.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
I worked at Chautauqua as a ground instructor after hitting the magic 60. They were looking into ab initio as a feed for new pilots. I don't think it has taken off yet. Wait until the parents of student pilots stop paying for sons and daughters to get the time and see what the airlines do. I can't see how it makes any sense for a young pilot to spend that kind of money for the FO pay and long wait for promotion to Captain.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
In reply to myself, any kind of complex twin or turbine aircraft time will be OK. 1500 hours in a 172 either as instructor or working pilot is not what we need. Pilots are going to have to be flexible, mobile and take whatever job will do the trick. Banner towing or sightseeing will not hack it. After saying this, I'm reminded that an ATP is qualified to instruct in part 121. I've had to do my share of ATP instructing. I do believe, though, that the passengers deserve better.

[This poster has been suspended.]

onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
And where do you suggest they get those hours at?

[This poster has been suspended.]

onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
okay I'll give you jump and instruction but night freight hours would probably go up too

THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Night freight won't matter, bodies not boxes count...
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
You're getting pretty liberal in your old age there Phil, I expected more like 25000 from you...
airclaxon1
Paul Claxon 0
I want more than 1500 hrs in the pilot's logbook before I climb in an airliner !
preacher1
preacher1 0
My 2cts on my laptop here while waiting: It used to be that familiarity and all could be gained without that much problem when the 3rd man was in the cockpit. With him gone, you have the need for 2 qualified men on the deck. That said, where are they gonna get the experience? They can be trained and have a ticket in their pocket but where are they going to gain experience/build time, at least in type. You don't have that many 135 operators flying big iron. So he has 1500 hours, WHAT IN?????? It's a catch 22 but the airlines are going to have to follow the trucks and rails and set up some kind of training program that will allow them to gain both time & experience and in order to do this, the FAA is going to have to show a little flexibility as well and approve their programs.
jkudlick
Jeremy Kudlick 3
It is not uncommon for US Air Force pilots and Naval Aviators (including USMC) to have 1500 or more hours in their logbooks by the time they've served their minimum time (8 years for Academy grads). However, there aren't anywhere near enough of them leaving military service to make up for the gap we will soon be seeing.
zcolescott
Silly question, but if that is the case, then why did the FAA make an exception and lower the time for military pilots (in addition to accredited college graduates)??
Quidnon
Collin Box 1
There isnt an exception for military pilots or accredited college grads. It is just a proposal that has been put before the FAA at this point. Regionals are also trying to get an exception put in place for FOs who have already worked for a part 121 operation for a given amount of time.
bbabis
bbabis 1
Hi again Paul. I would like 5000 hrs or more before I climb aboard but then again I'm a realist. Why does an arbitrary number need to be set, particularly one that puts such a large burden on pilots trying to enter the industry? For you, did something magical happen on the pilot's 1501 hr to carry him/her into the airline world? Remember also that these pilots would initially be flying with experienced captains having plenty enough hours to make you happy. Another question; Who would you rather have as your pilot? A 750 hour pilot that has 500 hrs flying canceled checks in barrons in all kinds of weather and usually at night shooting multiple instrument approaches or a pilot that has 1500 hrs of pattern and some cross country work in C152s. One qualifies and one doesn't. I'll reiterate also, a pilot that has a bad attitude, poor aptitude, and poor training will be unsafe no matter how many hours they have muddled through. We have to leave it to people who know and can judge pilots to make the correct decision on who moves on and who doesn't with no set minimum. We can't have congress that doesn't understand the industry, grabbing publicity and passing laws that have far reaching negative consequences. Once again, I hope all is well with you and always be safe.