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Official: Rivera plane plummeted almost straight
Mexico's top transportation official says a plane carrying Mexican-American music superstar Jenni Rivera plunged almost vertically from more than 28,000 feet and hit the ground in a nose-dive at more than 600 miles an hour. (www.chron.com) Más...Sort type: [Top] [Newest]
This one kinda sounds like an MMo excursion, except at 28000 they were still in the indicated airspeed, mach transition point. Depends on OAT. Anywho, it is very easy to exceed VMo, MMo at 280 in a 20 series Lear and when you do you get what is called mach tuck. The nose goes down no matter what because the center of lift moves aft and only gets worse because the nose is going down and the airspeed is increasing. Unfortunately, the inexperienced guy will now deploy the spoilers, which drives the nose down some more. Oops. By now you are probably at .86 or .88 mach and the ailerons start to snatch or at least buzz. Depends on who painted them and if they were balanced properly. Some more oops because MMo is .82 and not a flexible # in a Lear. In the sim the proper recovery was throttles to idle, gear down, screw the gear doors, and slowly pitch up to recover from the overspeed. Not to be glib, but sometimes the instinctive approach is not the correct one. I still suspect that this airplane was not RVSM legal. Nobody flies these airplanes at 280 because they burn too much fuel down there. These airplanes are at home at 450 with a good set of engines. Fuel burn gets back to about 10% of the gross weight or 1200 to 1300 lbs. per hour. About the same as Garretts at those altitudes, if you can get em there.
For the uninitiated among us, what is an "MMo excursion?" And also, "RSVM?"
Mach/Velocity Max Operating or the Maximum Operating Limit Speed
Ray, FAR part 1 abbreviations and definitions. Don't know what page. Not being a S.A. just sayin, their published and you'll also find Vx, Vy, Vne and all those other things you learned for your private. Jose is correct, my theory is an overspeed, with no associated stick puller, overspeed warning. It's all over pretty quick on a dark night in a worst case scenario. Right or wrong, gonna be pretty tough to prove conclusively with what's left. Google RVSM and read about it on Wiki. Probably won't affect you but good to know.
28,000 may have been where it had its initial issues, maybe in climb or descent. I'm not sure if the 28,000 was the final altitude and can't find it anywhere that it was or wasn't. Also, if only flying for 100 miles, I don't know that the pilot would bother getting to the higher FLs. However, not having any time in a Learjet, I can't say anything for sure, but it does sound confusing (possibly confounding for those without a lot of time) when MACH TUCK is reached. I'm hopeful for a full report, but if it nosed in at 600+MPH straight down, even if a Black Box was installed, I doubt it would survive with any useful information. I'm not sure that anything will be left of much value from a catastrophic crash like that!
Starwood Management of Las Vegas, had their other airplane confiscated by the DEA in McAllen Tx.......interesting...............
Not one aircraft, but two -- from http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/dec/10/lt-mexico-jenni-rivera/
The company is also subject of a federal lawsuit in Nevada.
QBE Insurance Corp. alleges that a Starwood aircraft was ordered seized by the DEA when it landed in McAllen, Texas, from Mexico on Sept. 12. The New York-based insurer sued in October to rescind coverage for the Hawker 700 jet.
Starwood, in a court filing, acknowledged that the DEA was involved in the seizure of the aircraft.
QBE, based in New York, said the DEA also seized a Starwood-owned Gulfstream G-1159A _ insured by another company _ when it landed in Tucson from Mexico in February. Starwood said in its court filing that it didn't have enough information to address the allegation.
Nevada secretary of state records list only one Starwood officer _ Norma Gonzalez _ but QBE alleges that the company is owned and managed by Ed Nunez, who, according to the lawsuit, is also known as Christian Esquino and had a long criminal history.
Starwood rejected the insurer's description of Nunez's role at the company.
According to QBE's lawsuit, Esquino pleaded guilty in federal court in Orlando, Florida, in 1993 to conspiracy to possess and distribute cocaine.
QBE said Esquino also served two years in prison after pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit fraud involving an aircraft in Southern California in 2004. QBE said Esquino's attorney stated in court back then that his client had been under investigation by the DEA for more than a year.
Starwood said in its court filing that it didn't have enough information to address either the Florida or Southern California case against Esquino.
The company is also subject of a federal lawsuit in Nevada.
QBE Insurance Corp. alleges that a Starwood aircraft was ordered seized by the DEA when it landed in McAllen, Texas, from Mexico on Sept. 12. The New York-based insurer sued in October to rescind coverage for the Hawker 700 jet.
Starwood, in a court filing, acknowledged that the DEA was involved in the seizure of the aircraft.
QBE, based in New York, said the DEA also seized a Starwood-owned Gulfstream G-1159A _ insured by another company _ when it landed in Tucson from Mexico in February. Starwood said in its court filing that it didn't have enough information to address the allegation.
Nevada secretary of state records list only one Starwood officer _ Norma Gonzalez _ but QBE alleges that the company is owned and managed by Ed Nunez, who, according to the lawsuit, is also known as Christian Esquino and had a long criminal history.
Starwood rejected the insurer's description of Nunez's role at the company.
According to QBE's lawsuit, Esquino pleaded guilty in federal court in Orlando, Florida, in 1993 to conspiracy to possess and distribute cocaine.
QBE said Esquino also served two years in prison after pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit fraud involving an aircraft in Southern California in 2004. QBE said Esquino's attorney stated in court back then that his client had been under investigation by the DEA for more than a year.
Starwood said in its court filing that it didn't have enough information to address either the Florida or Southern California case against Esquino.
More info on CNN, including falsifying logbook entries and inspections:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/11/us/mexico-plane-ownership/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/11/us/mexico-plane-ownership/index.html
The plane "which lost contact with air traffic controllers soon after takeoff" yet fell from fl280?
Anybody else wonder how they got to that altitude without ATC contact? Granted, it's Mexico and I've never flown in their airspace.
Anybody else wonder how they got to that altitude without ATC contact? Granted, it's Mexico and I've never flown in their airspace.
I'm half Mexican and I hate to bash on that half of my family's home country, but people in Mexico love taking shortcuts to things to get them done faster and oftentimes, accidents like these are the case. Granted, that happens a lot worldwide, i.e. the crash of AAL191 in Chicago in 1979 was the result of employees taking shortcuts and undermining safety.
I've read and seen on TV that the crew was well over their flying time limit for the day, the PIC at the time of takeoff was 78 years old, and the plane had a questionable past under ownership by a questionable company. Even for a bit on the Spanish news last night, it was being said that drug dealers operating in the area has shot the plane down and that Jenni Rivera was still alive and possibly kidnapped. Being half-Mexican and visiting the country often, I know that a lot of shady stuff goes on there, but I'm willing to be the cause of the crash is just gonna be a group of factors that were ignored and the accident could've been prevented.
I've read and seen on TV that the crew was well over their flying time limit for the day, the PIC at the time of takeoff was 78 years old, and the plane had a questionable past under ownership by a questionable company. Even for a bit on the Spanish news last night, it was being said that drug dealers operating in the area has shot the plane down and that Jenni Rivera was still alive and possibly kidnapped. Being half-Mexican and visiting the country often, I know that a lot of shady stuff goes on there, but I'm willing to be the cause of the crash is just gonna be a group of factors that were ignored and the accident could've been prevented.
I don't think she'd be alive after coming down from 28000 ft. at 6000 fpm.!!!
Your odds are better stowing away in the wheelwell of a 767. They usually fall out when the gear come down. But they don't know it! Sad to say, definitely closed urn at the funeral.