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Middle East Probe finds crashed Emirates airliner tried to go around

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The findings released Tuesday in a 28-page report by the United Arab Emirates’ General Civil Aviation Authority. (www.washingtonpost.com) Más...

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bryanmckee
Bryan McKee 7
"In thrust we trust"
AntonioBarros
Yes, playstation era pilot's... God help us all... The computer's in the flightdeck's are becoming more inteligent that the pilot's flying them...
bbabis
Bill Babis 4
No matter how hot one comes into land I've never seen a successful go-around at idle thrust. Thinking about it with a go-around attitude, max drag of gear in transit, and already sinking is a tad late. This was another crew in over their heads on the operation of automated systems and basic airmanship.
apmac77
anthony mchale 4
Is that common to retract the landing gear at 85' on a go around? Seems like a few hundred feet would be safer?
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 5
Everyone is missing the one major call out on a go around or takeoff: "Positive Rate, Gear Up" When a positive rate of climb is achieved (not barely, but250fpm+) THEN the gear is retracted. Not when full power is applied, not solely to reduce drag. If you don't have positive rate, you don't raise gear because you're still going down. 777 is fully capable of a max weight go-around on a single engine. Like the 757, she is grossly overpowered, you just have to ask for it.
aidannorman
aidannorman 2
Remember you want to eliminate as much drag as possible so you can get some speed, the gear is one of the biggest things creating drag on a plane
bbabis
Bill Babis 5
There is not an aircraft made that cannot go-around with its gear down. Gear position is no where near as critical as verifying TO/GA power. On many aircraft drag is actually increased significantly during retraction as doors open and trucks rotate for stowage. Why this crew elected to move the gear and not the power is unfathomable. As with Asiana 214, because of a crasworthy airplane, this crew was very furtunate that loss of life was minimal.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 2
Funny, I was going to comment then I read yours and we would have said the same thing. I do remember in some early sim training years ago, that the instructors set the scenario up of high hot and heavy and blew up a engine just after V-1, now we were already at full power but if you retracted the gear before a positive rate, the aircraft settled back down due to increased drag from the body and wing doors and there was nothing you could do about.
mikeosmers
Michael Osmers 1
Me too. At our carrier the procedure is "Going around (TOGA button), flaps 20, CHECK THRUST, Positive rate, gear up, Check missed approach altitude..."
Obviously the aircraft can't climb without climb thrust...
Cadefoster
Cade foster 5
yes, but should not thrust have been applied before gear up?
dodger4
dodger4 3
There's a fundamental issue here that everyone seems to be ignoring: the plane is flying the pilots, instead of the other way round.
DSchultz101
Dustin Schultz 2
It seems it was more of a 'balked landing' than a traditional go-around. I wonder if the pilot was in ground effect and calling for flaps up at the same time. Giving the impression that they were having a positive rate. Once flaps were in the go-around position, the airplane settled back down. I'm sure the engines were at idle if they touched down once, taking a while for them to spool back up for go-around thrust.
sticky1202
James Boerman 2
I'm just curious. The right main touched down 3600 feet down the runway followed by the left main 3 seconds later. At this point, with wind shear and all in the area, wouldn't it be better to stay on the ground and stand on the brakes? From the point of the right main touching down, they had more then 9500 feet to stop...
bryanmckee
Bryan McKee 2
TOGA, positive rate gear up!

A positive rate must be established so if they had that at 85' then so be it. Not any different than a regular takeoff. Gear are retracted well below 100'
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Not in a windshear encounter. No configuration change untill safely away from the ground. Obviously, that procedure was not followed.
Cadefoster
Cade foster 2
Any B777-300ER pilots want to chime in if there is some automated system that the pilots were assuming would initiate go around power in that set of circumstances?
30west
30west 4
I have not flown the B777, but have many hours flying the B757/767 for my airline. I believe that the B777 A/T system logic is very similar. With that caveat, here are my thoughts.

The TOGA buttons on the thrust levers will not always advance the thrust levers. It depends on the mode selected and also whether the air-ground sensors on both of the L & R main landing gear sense the jet is on the ground (on normal landings, you will see the Ground Spoilers deploy as soon as both mains are on the ground). Once the A/T system "knows" from the sensors that the jet is on the ground, depressing the TOGA buttons will not cause the thrust levers to advance, but pitch guidance on the Flight Director will be presented. In that circumstance the pilot must advance the thrust levers manually or...and a very bad idea on the beginning of a go-around....divert your attention and waste precious time to re-engage/direct NFP to re-engage the A/T system and set speed, and then confirm yourself, when you should be "flying the jet". Once you have completed the transition from the go-around (proper thrust, good rate of climb, safe attitude, gear up, comm with tower, etc.) to a normal climb out in the 500' (min) -1,000' range, it's time to re-engage the magic (FMS mode selections and A/T's for sure, A/P your choice).

From the article, a picture is painted of the crew not having a complete understanding of the A/T system's functioning. It took a very long time, 12 seconds after the initiation of the go-around which was 3 seconds before impact, before the thrust levers were manually advanced.. Time and the accident report will tell. If so, a very similar lack of system understanding as was the case in the Asiana accident at SFO.
Cadefoster
Cade foster 2
thanks 30west for your very knowledgeable comments. I am wondering why with such little time, runways length left, etc that one of the flight crew didn't just push the thrust levers forward. Understanding of the systems and maybe even lack of teamwork/communication at such a critical time may be a place to look. Having those massive engines at full power seems to be the 1st important part of their failed around. IMHO
30west
30west 4
Cade, That is the big question. Why did the crew wait so long to react to the engines being at idle thrust? Hopefully, the investigation will find the facts, report them and help avoid a future accidents. The nose pointed in the right direction and thrust are the two biggies.
ToddBaldwin3
Todd Baldwin 2
According to another source (The Aviation Herald, sorry, I can't copy the link), which has a more detailed and technical report, the WoW sensors activated at 1100 meters down the runway. An included copy of the FCOM states that TO/GA is inhibited once the sensors report the aircraft is on the ground.
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
Spot on 30west - love your posts. Asiana in KSFO had a similar misunderstanding of the A/T system as well (among other things)
taterhed1
taterhed1 3
Different planes may have different specifics, but a single TOGA would probably have not initiated go-around thrust in this case. A 'double-click' TOGA might have advanced the throttles.... (from a friend who's current 777).

The best procedures/sim instructors always teach these golden rules of fully automated aircraft (starting with Airbus at the top of the list): 1)identify the switch 2)confirm the switch (time permitting) 3)Watch for the desired reaction 4)adjust as necessary and FLY THE AIRPLANE (all of this IMHO of course)

For those that haven't flown highly automated jets: Manually 'firewalling' the throttles is a relatively uncommon procedure--except for wind shear recovery or terrain avoidance (ironically). Sadly, fly the airplane THEN run the automation doesn't seem to be the common procedure for many. I blame the trainers and management. Sadly, deference to 'nationality' 'position' or 'culture' seems to be confused with 'Capt's authority' more and more..... Just sayin.
taterhed1
taterhed1 1
On second thought....seems like they had both WOW and probably deployed speedbrakes ? I guess if they were 'on the ground' auto go-around isn't possible. The article cited is pretty specific.

sigh....
bryanmckee
Bryan McKee 2
Not 777 typed but I am familiar with the aircraft. There is not a "fully automated" system that would advance the thrust to the toga position. There are buttons located on the each throttle lever which would need to be pushed by the pilot flying to initiate TOGA thrust. Once that happens the throttle is pushed to the TOGA setting and if the autopilot is engaged it will no longer follow the glide slope.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Thank you for posting joel. I finally read it and found the answer to several questions of mine. The RAAS does give a voice callout of "Long Landing" and apparently the crew reacted to this callout after ignoring the previous wind shear warnings and totally botched the GA/balked landing procedure. Its also interesting that a note in the AFM states that “An automatic go-around cannot be initiated after touchdown.” You gotta do it yourself and they had no clue.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
I've never heard of a "Long landing" warning system that didn't come from my pilot sense. Any 777 pilots on here that can shed some light on this system? My assumption is that this go-around attempt was due to wind shear, which is handled differently than a simple go-around or balked landing. Either way, this crew failed at the basics of either event and were just an accident waiting to happen somewhere.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Could this be the RAAS system and is there a vocal callout of "Long landing?"
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
Positive Rate, Gear up. Seems like the latter was done before the former.
taterhed1
taterhed1 1
Actually, they had a positive rate for a few seconds. They simply got in a hurry.
pitch, power, performance.... AND continued flight assured (aircraft will not touchdown). Aircraft touchdown during CAT2/3 (or other emergency)approaches is a very real possibility and the possibility of inadvertent touchdown (or secondary bounce etc...) is a very real factor--even in large jets like the 777. Gear retraction is even more critical in max-performance V1 cuts, but you won't see well-trained pilots snapping the gear up 50 feet off the ground without adequate performance indications.

There is a difference in training....
nasdisco
Chris B 1
My conclusion is the same as Taterhead1. Its all down to training and teamwork with pre flight and pre landing plans reviewed and agreed ahead of time.
altawood
altawood 1
It is apparent that Boeing still requires pilot skills in contrast to the superb button-pushing-computer skills of Airbus. Airlines need to establish a two-track qual system. Airbus trained pilots should not be permitted to cross over.

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