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LEARJET 35 CRASH Teterboro NJ
A Learjet 35 just crashed on approach to KTEB - Tail # N452DA http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N452DA (www.reuters.com) Más...Sort type: [Top] [Newest]
The entirety of New York area airports and the airspace need to be rebuilt. Yesterday JFK should not have been running 90 minute delays with light winds and clear skies, but East winds did it anyway because of LGA existing... it's time to close LGA and rebuild JFK to be like ATL or ORD. That would not only reduce delays, it'd add capacity at the same time... but LGA MUST GO!
My thoughts and prayers are with the family (personal and professional) of the ones who were lost. - GOD SPEED!
Very sad indeed to hear of any loss---my condolences. Maybe this is one reason that at my former airline, we did not do circling approaches. They were even taken out of our checkrides. A true circling approach and landing is really precise and in a Lear, has to be perfect. They were probably under Part 91/135 rules and could try anything that was legal with their company.
A circle to land in the AIM can be any approach that is not runway specific such as a VOR A which does not specify a runway and allows landing on any runway when cleared.
Now days with RNAV(GPS) approaches at hundreds of airports that are all straight in there is no need to circle. The New York area is way too congested in my opinion.
DCA is a good example. There is no circling approach into DCA but tower may clear you to "circle to land" in VMC conditions if you have the runway in sight. Other approaches not aligned with the landing runway are all LDA approaches. LDA RW19 for example. TEB has no published circling approach so they were test pilots.
"Fly the jet" and if things don't look good---go around. I believe wind, bank and airspeed were against them. Aviation is beautiful and also brutal. God bless them and families.
A circle to land in the AIM can be any approach that is not runway specific such as a VOR A which does not specify a runway and allows landing on any runway when cleared.
Now days with RNAV(GPS) approaches at hundreds of airports that are all straight in there is no need to circle. The New York area is way too congested in my opinion.
DCA is a good example. There is no circling approach into DCA but tower may clear you to "circle to land" in VMC conditions if you have the runway in sight. Other approaches not aligned with the landing runway are all LDA approaches. LDA RW19 for example. TEB has no published circling approach so they were test pilots.
"Fly the jet" and if things don't look good---go around. I believe wind, bank and airspeed were against them. Aviation is beautiful and also brutal. God bless them and families.
Unfortunately, there is no published approach to Runway 1, RNAV or otherwise. You fly the ILS 6 approach and circle. That's the routine at Teterboro. If there is a wastern component to the wind you have to already have it in your mind that things are going to happen very fast in the downwind-base-final phase, especially in a Category C or D airplane. And if you try and give yourself some extra space the tower WILL bang on you regarding Newark.
If you've flown the procedure before, you have a great advantage with being able to use the stadium and antenna towers as landmarks. You need to stay north of the tallest antenna, and that's also kind of uncomfortable because it's tough to stay visual with it.
Not saying it's a good situation, because it isn't. It just is.
And as for airlines never doing such things, they've done it routinely at MDW for years even after the RNAV 22L was published - Fly the ILS 31C and circle to 22L. You do have a little more room at MDW though.
I don't understand your statement "TEB has no published circling approach so they were test pilots". Circling minimums are clearly published on the chart and the weather was well above them.
If you've flown the procedure before, you have a great advantage with being able to use the stadium and antenna towers as landmarks. You need to stay north of the tallest antenna, and that's also kind of uncomfortable because it's tough to stay visual with it.
Not saying it's a good situation, because it isn't. It just is.
And as for airlines never doing such things, they've done it routinely at MDW for years even after the RNAV 22L was published - Fly the ILS 31C and circle to 22L. You do have a little more room at MDW though.
I don't understand your statement "TEB has no published circling approach so they were test pilots". Circling minimums are clearly published on the chart and the weather was well above them.
I think he may be talking about a stand alone circle, not a straight in approach with a circling option.
I'm confused also since circling mins. would be published.
I'm confused also since circling mins. would be published.
Well, there is the VOR/DME B published as a "stand alone" circle at TEB.
There had seemed to be an inference that perhaps the crew was "trying" something inappropriate or unwise and "now days" there is no need to circle.
The point to my response is that there is no straight in approach to Runway 1 at all, and that the procedure they were flying was not "test pilot" territory but, rather, TEB standard operating procedure.
TEB can be tricky, operating there requires a high level of SA and a thorough brief on procedures before even getting in the airplane. For instance, if you're cleared for any of the published departure and you take off, pull the wheels, and then take the plate out from under the stack thinking "OK, what have we got here?" you've already hopelessly busted the procedure.
There had seemed to be an inference that perhaps the crew was "trying" something inappropriate or unwise and "now days" there is no need to circle.
The point to my response is that there is no straight in approach to Runway 1 at all, and that the procedure they were flying was not "test pilot" territory but, rather, TEB standard operating procedure.
TEB can be tricky, operating there requires a high level of SA and a thorough brief on procedures before even getting in the airplane. For instance, if you're cleared for any of the published departure and you take off, pull the wheels, and then take the plate out from under the stack thinking "OK, what have we got here?" you've already hopelessly busted the procedure.
To Brian Anderson and THRUSTT I stand corrected. There is a circle only approach but that's not what they were flying. I'll retract my statement that they were test pilots. That was a bad comment.
I will confess---I've never been into TEB. I consider the entire New York area to be a hazard. However, I can see exactly what you are saying. There are three huge airports and traffic everywhere.
Several other approaches also have circling minimums. However, they were in VMC so minimums were not a factor. They were flying a side step not a true circling as would be necessary in IMC.
Am I wrong that they were based out of TEB? They knew all the SA required?
As I stated before, DCA used a similar tactic. Flying the ILS RW1 and over the Arlington bridge, you were asked if you had RW33 in sight and were cleared to land RW33. Some pilots said you can't overfly the Marine Barracks on the east side of the Potomac? Yes you can. There is no restriction. So don't try and keep it in tight. You can widen the turn to final and not overbank. In IMC, they hardly ever did this. PIT and CLT also did the sidestep.
Concerning MDW, I have flown there many, many times and never had to circle. It was almost every landing on RW31 and sometimes RW13. Probably because the terminal was on east side and it was a quick taxi to the gate.
About circling in IMC? Maybe Part 135 guys still do that. I flew Part 121 and that was removed from our Ops manual and we never did them. Circle to land in VMC is not a true circle. Look in the AIM and see how restrictive an IMC circle really is.
I suspect these guys began the sidestep too late, got hit with a strong west wind, which they knew, over banked and got a little too slow. Can I assume they had a glass cockpit with radar altimeter, wind, ground speed? All the bells and whistles?
NTSB will conclude it was pilot error and failure to control your aircraft. We are sometimes pushed into a position where we are beyond control. That's aviation. As I said "fly the jet" and talk to ATC and FAA later. Ignore the "barking" from Newark. Gotta do what you gotta do. Sorry if I rambled too much.
I will confess---I've never been into TEB. I consider the entire New York area to be a hazard. However, I can see exactly what you are saying. There are three huge airports and traffic everywhere.
Several other approaches also have circling minimums. However, they were in VMC so minimums were not a factor. They were flying a side step not a true circling as would be necessary in IMC.
Am I wrong that they were based out of TEB? They knew all the SA required?
As I stated before, DCA used a similar tactic. Flying the ILS RW1 and over the Arlington bridge, you were asked if you had RW33 in sight and were cleared to land RW33. Some pilots said you can't overfly the Marine Barracks on the east side of the Potomac? Yes you can. There is no restriction. So don't try and keep it in tight. You can widen the turn to final and not overbank. In IMC, they hardly ever did this. PIT and CLT also did the sidestep.
Concerning MDW, I have flown there many, many times and never had to circle. It was almost every landing on RW31 and sometimes RW13. Probably because the terminal was on east side and it was a quick taxi to the gate.
About circling in IMC? Maybe Part 135 guys still do that. I flew Part 121 and that was removed from our Ops manual and we never did them. Circle to land in VMC is not a true circle. Look in the AIM and see how restrictive an IMC circle really is.
I suspect these guys began the sidestep too late, got hit with a strong west wind, which they knew, over banked and got a little too slow. Can I assume they had a glass cockpit with radar altimeter, wind, ground speed? All the bells and whistles?
NTSB will conclude it was pilot error and failure to control your aircraft. We are sometimes pushed into a position where we are beyond control. That's aviation. As I said "fly the jet" and talk to ATC and FAA later. Ignore the "barking" from Newark. Gotta do what you gotta do. Sorry if I rambled too much.
Not sure why it has to be IMC to minimums before it's officially a circling approach, but oh well.
My experience with that same maneuver they were on is that ATC will not hesitate to try and reach through the radio and fly your airplane for you, and you just can't allow it. You can hear it in this case when what sounds like a different controller comes on at the last second saying "You gonna start that turn?". Did the PF crank in a little more bank, sneak in some rudder because he felt pressured? Just don't know. Hopefully there will be good information on the radar tracks and the CVR.
It would be interesting to know what triggered the go-around about a minute and a half before the crash.
Another place where there is an even crummier situation is Chicago Executive (PWK) with a north wind.
My experience with that same maneuver they were on is that ATC will not hesitate to try and reach through the radio and fly your airplane for you, and you just can't allow it. You can hear it in this case when what sounds like a different controller comes on at the last second saying "You gonna start that turn?". Did the PF crank in a little more bank, sneak in some rudder because he felt pressured? Just don't know. Hopefully there will be good information on the radar tracks and the CVR.
It would be interesting to know what triggered the go-around about a minute and a half before the crash.
Another place where there is an even crummier situation is Chicago Executive (PWK) with a north wind.
Again, "fly the jet". Never let ATC come thru the radio and fly for you. Good advice Brian. I'm sure those controllers are losing some sleep with doubts about what happened.
Lose an engine right after V1 (V1 cut), don't say anything. Climb at V2 to a safe altitude, then advise ATC you are declaring an emergency. .
I missed the part about the go-around. I need to listen again.
The sidestep is my opinion and if it is called a circle, so be it.
Lose an engine right after V1 (V1 cut), don't say anything. Climb at V2 to a safe altitude, then advise ATC you are declaring an emergency. .
I missed the part about the go-around. I need to listen again.
The sidestep is my opinion and if it is called a circle, so be it.
Be Careful about the macho pilot stuff guys. True ATC can't fly your airplane but they know how it should be flown and expect it accordingly. Using your V1 engine failure procedure at TEB will most likely kill you and maybe hundreds more before you decide to give ATC a clue. If you ever need help, speak up immediately, they are more than willing to do everything they can to off load your other responsibilities while you concentrate on the pilot sh1t. Use CRM to it's fullest.
Disagree. Once he's cleared to circle (sidestep?) the airspace is his. Fly the airplane within it's maneuvering envelope for the speed and configuration.
If you break off north of the TORBY NDB then fly just south of the stadium that's when ATC will begin barking about Newark, but flying south of the stadium is fine and you can't bust airspace as long as you stay north of the antenna. Look at the VFR chart. Assuming N52DA lost it turning final and the impact being only a half a mile from the end of the runway it was just too tight - especially with the wind.
Good video of that exact procedure being flown (and in a Lear 35 even) Make your turn just south of the stadium and you give yourself some room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWodeB26I3s
If you break off north of the TORBY NDB then fly just south of the stadium that's when ATC will begin barking about Newark, but flying south of the stadium is fine and you can't bust airspace as long as you stay north of the antenna. Look at the VFR chart. Assuming N52DA lost it turning final and the impact being only a half a mile from the end of the runway it was just too tight - especially with the wind.
Good video of that exact procedure being flown (and in a Lear 35 even) Make your turn just south of the stadium and you give yourself some room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWodeB26I3s
Coincidence that I just watched this video this AM while surfing on youtube.
Not sure what you disagree with Brian. Maybe you meant to reply to a different post. Still, my conversation with Peter Steitz has you in mind also. Your posts read like you have a confrontational approach to ATC and handle them on a need to know bases. In an emergency, outside of a crew member, ATC is your best resource in CRM. If you're single pilot, they're what you need. Never give up your PIC authority but bring them onboard ASAP. Its amazing what they can do for you when you work together. In 40+ years of flying I've had 4 declared emergencies with superb help from ATC each time and have never once filled out a form or had follow up contact with the FAA. Contrary to popular belief, they are here to help you, especially when you really need it.
What I disagree with is the "macho pilot" comment. I'm also at a complete loss as to how a thorough situational awareness of the lateral and vertical limits of the airspace you have been cleared to maneuver in is "a confrontational approach to ATC". I would think "co-operative approach to ATC" would be a better description.
The good men and women working approach and tower there operate that airspace on a daily basis and I'm there once, maybe twice a year, but it seems to me ATC would actually appreciate pilots operating in that complex airspace who have familiarized themselves with it's boundaries prior to flying the procedure they've been cleared to execute?
Perhaps local control there feels it necessary to help (I won't say "bark at" anymore) some pilots with the procedures at TEB because they encounter a fair number of pilots who need such help?
I don't know.
Maybe a controller can chime in and help us out?
The good men and women working approach and tower there operate that airspace on a daily basis and I'm there once, maybe twice a year, but it seems to me ATC would actually appreciate pilots operating in that complex airspace who have familiarized themselves with it's boundaries prior to flying the procedure they've been cleared to execute?
Perhaps local control there feels it necessary to help (I won't say "bark at" anymore) some pilots with the procedures at TEB because they encounter a fair number of pilots who need such help?
I don't know.
Maybe a controller can chime in and help us out?