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Plane crash in Kentucky, young girl survives

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Crash site is near Kentucky Lake. Was a PA-34 Seneca. Five were on board and four have died. a 7 year old girl survived and walked to nearby house. Lousy weather in the area. They had departed Tallahassee enroute to Mt Vernon, Illinois I believe. (www.wpsdlocal6.com) Más...

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WALLACE24
WALLACE24 5
N81291.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Anybody you knew?
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 3
Didn't know them. Crash site about 5 east of m34, my home base. Flight aware shows a turn toward the west ( maybe to go to Paducah where there is ILS). Don't know if the crash was controlled or uncontrolled. Not a good spot for Seneca on one with low ceilings at nite. God bless them.
MikeMohle
Mike Mohle 2
Fuel exhaustion maybe??? No sign of a fire.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Certainly possible. Was in the air 3 hrs w/ climb to 12k. A little fueling error at TLH could lead to bingo on fuel early.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
What were the temps. like? I wonder if they iced up, the V should fly on one... RIP
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Possible. His cruise alt was 6k. Surface temp here was 40ish.
jaspc
Jose Suro 1
Flightaware graph shows they were up to 12000 for some time out of KJAX.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Meant to say he filed for 6. The last return on the graph was 93kts, 2700msl, and descending 540fpm. So he appeared to be under control up to then.
ADXbear
ADXbear 3
Its nothing short of a miracle that the little girl walked out of that carnage in the middle of the night... RIP to the family.. Everyone, please fly safe. Don't push your envelope.. live to fly another day..
dotrahan
dotrahan 2
Report showed they began in Key West. Thats about 900 miles from Mt Vernon. Given the load on board and weather conditions along the route, would this be well beyond range of the aircraft PA 34)??
dotrahan
dotrahan 1
Correction. They stopped over in Tallahassee Florida on the route, within range.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
They made a stop in Tallahassee. If you follow the link to FA posted earlier, you can see the leg from Key West before departing T.
vipirate
Bill Weedon 2
My deepest condolances to the Gutzler family, particularly the heroic survivor Sailor. What a miricle!

I am particularly interested in the accident investigation as I own two light twin aircraft including a BE55 Baron and a Cessna 421 Golden Eagle. We don't know critical information related to the accident investigation including the position of the engine controls (throttle/props/mixture). The FlightAware data showing a last reported altitude of 2700 feet and 93 knots descending at 540 ft/min seems to indicate the loss of an engine. If that is indeed the case, was the inoperative engine "feathered"? If not, that unfeathered or "windmilling" engine would create a lot of drag, making it difficult if not impossible for the aircraft to climb or even maintain altitude. And if one engine was feathered, was the operating engine set to maximum power (throttle/prop/mixture full forward)? The Seneca II has counter-rotating propellers, so there is no "critical engine". Also, the Seneca, like many Piper Aircraft models has something called "Alt Air" - an engine control switch that allows warm air to bypass the engine air filter in case the primary induction path gets iced up - leading to the loss of engine power. What was the position of the Alt Air switches?

What we do know is that the reported ground temp at the time of impact was 40 deg F (4 C), which means the freezing level was around 2000'! Based on the FlightAware data (N81291), we also know that the aircraft cruising at 12,000 feet encountered areas of scattered precipitation across the entire state of Alabama. The Seneca II has no de-ice boots and no way to shed ice from its prop or wing/stabilizer leading edges. As the aircraft travelled across Tennessee, it had exited the icing conditions, but then encountered another relatively narrow band of precip in Kentucky that was ~20 miles wide extending East-West and narrowing to the East. The FlightAware weather image shows a relatively heavy area of precip (yellow cell) in the vicinity just prior to the crash. Key question: did the pilot have XM weather on-board, and was he aware of the extent of the precipitation? Did ATC inform him of the heavy precipitation in the vicinity of the crash site (a vector to the Northeast may have avoided the heavy precip if the FlightAware weather image is correct)?

The radar track data shows that the pilot's real troubles began when he descended below 6000' (radar data ceased 3 minutes after he descended below 6000'). When he got below 3000', things went bad real fast. Assuming he had sufficient fuel, perhaps a wiser choice would have been to stay at 8000-12,000 ft and continue on another 80 nmi (25-30 min) to KMVN, vectoring around or through the narrow band of precip. Well above the freezing level, the icing would have had much less of an impact. Even on one engine, he should have been able to limp the airplane home. If he had to get down in a hurry (out of gas), there was a towered airport (KPAH) just 20 miles to the west. But that would be heading into the weather. The choice to divert to a non-towered airport (M34) with no instrument approaches at night in icing conditions (likely freezing rain) was likely a fatal mistake.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N81291/history/20150102/2100Z/KTLH/KMVN
tf51d
Thomas Cain 0
Looking at the past flights, it looks like he flew direct flights, so he may not have been IFR rated. The flight map also looks like he ws flying at the edge of some weather where he crashed, so that may have been a contributing factor.
linbb
linbb 1
Flying direct would have no bearing on his rating quit speculating about it until the report comes out.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
He was on an IFR flight plan. Destination was 100 nm north of crash and was IFR. KMVN does have an ILS.
cm5299
Chuck Me 1
Silly question - how can you tell if they are on an IFR flight plan? Thanks!
bovineone
Jeff Lawson 1
VFR flight following will sometimes be visible on FlightAware. Usually you can distinguish them by the filed route being "n/a" and the filed altitude ending in 500 ft. IFR flights will generally have a route and a whole 1000 altitude.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Enter the tail number on flight aware to the left of your screen.
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 2
Pilots FB page https://www.facebook.com/marty.gutzler/photos
sparkie624
sparkie624 4
Bad news... Glad the little girl survived... She certainly was brave to get to where someone could help her, and I am glad that there was someone there that was a good person and not a child molester of some sorts... It would appear that higher beings took care of her.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 5
I wonder who down-voted you twice...
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 4
Now me, and you again. There's a molester amongst us, right next to the Atheist!!!
sparkie624
sparkie624 6
I do not understand it... Why would I be down voted for being glad that there was a good person to help her vs someone who was going to do harm too her... Maybe it is my Reference to the Higher Power.. Maybe I should have said God Took Care of her vs Higher Powers... Which is the truth...
ExCalbr
Victor Engel 5
There is no reason to believe child molesters have anything to do with this story. I imagine the down votes are because of that and the further off-topic discussion. I see no reason to speculate on horrors worse than already occurred. I can see how doing so would be offensive to some.
Bernie20910
Bernie20910 2
I did not downvote him, though I thought about it. For me, the reason would have been his implication that somehow there was more danger of a child molester being around than normal. The fine folks of Kentucky have long fought against the "inbred hillbilly" stereotype that a lot of people seem to associate with the state, much the same way that folks from West Virginia, Arkansas and other mostly rural and mountainous eastern states have battled against it. You know what I mean, the slobbering, inbred, uneducated, drawling cretin, as depicted in so many cartoons, films, and books over the past hundred and fifty years or so. I know sparkie didn't intend his comment that way because I've seen many of his other posts on here and consider him to be a fine person, and that's why I didn't downvote him, but it was close, simply because that's the image his comment presented to me, that the poor girl was in dangerous "hillbilly" country, and it was good she didn't meet up with one.

I also didn't really want to post this because, as you and others have pointed out, it is off-topic and detracts from the squawk and the story, but since it has become such a large part of this squawk and been so discussed that another viewpoint might help to get it clarified and settled.
cm5299
Chuck Me 2
I don't find it offensive. Just a silly thing to speculate about.
preacher1
preacher1 2
I don't know why it would be offensive unless some are reading it that cannot accept the reality of our modern world. She definitely had a higher power watching over her and guiding her.
paultrubits
paul trubits 4
Preacher, believe it or not it is actually safer now than when we were kids. The 24-7 news media sells a lot more soap and beer when they can get people's attention with horror stories. Just as it is safer flying now than ever, it does not get ratings or page views.
ExCalbr
Victor Engel 3
I'm not diminishing the girl's trek to the house. On the contrary, that was an amazing feat. I'm suggesting a possible reason for down voting a post (direct response to that question). Mentioning child molesters is gratuitous, alarmist, and possibly offensive to the local neighbors. It was uncalled for. There's really no reason to believe the house was occupied by a child molester.

I would suggest a good guideline for what is appropriate to post here is to imagine that the same child is reading the thread.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -3
It never said what kind of neighborhood.... For all we know it was in a Gheto somewhere... There are bad people all over, and there is no where in this country that they do not exist... I was just saying that I am glad she did not come up on one of those types.... It was not off topic, or alarming...
ExCalbr
Victor Engel 1
You asked for an explanation for why your post was voted down. You may not agree with the reasoning, but that doesn't mean it wasn't voted down for that reason. Anyway, it seems the likeliest reason to me. Someone who voted down for a different reason may wish to clarify (or not). These thumbs up/down things are rather silly anyway. I wouldn't worry about it.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -1
It was not off topic.... It was about he little girl involved in the crash. She was the only survivor and the only one that may be able to tell authorities what happened.
ExCalbr
Victor Engel -2
The further off-topic discussion, like this post, referred to the post discussing why a post was voted down. Whether a post was voted down is off-topic. I expect this post to be voted down, and rightfully so. I may do so myself, if the software lets me.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Maybe it's someone you took to task in a comment on a different squawk. Downvoting you there might seem traceable back to them. As they say, the dogs bark, but the wagons keep rolling on.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Possible...
kd7eir
Jim Myers 1
I will agree that a down vote on your post is certainly puzzling, as I could not find anything offensive, even when specifically searching for it after hearing of the down vote. You know that your post was legitimate, most of us know that as well.

You were merely expressing thankfulness that the story had as good an outcome as it did considering all the possibilities.
ExCalbr
Victor Engel 2
Engine trouble was reported. This plane has two engines. It should be possible to still fly with just one, no?
preacher1
preacher1 1
It is but there is a trick to any of them. Not sure about the Seneca but a King Air is a handful until power is pulled back to about 75%.

[This poster has been suspended.]

fergusdg1
David Ferguson 4
I'm the owner of a 1979 Seneca II and at max gross weight it will climb with a single engine to 14,000 feet. Not real fast, about 200 ft. per minute. This air craft wasn't likely at max gross weight. The kids were 7, 9 and 14, I would bet that their average weight was around 75 pounds (225 pounds). The adults were likely around 300 pounds, that's a total of 525 pounds, add luggage 650 maybe. I can carry full fuel tanks with that load 123 gals. The plane had been flying for almost three hours, at 25 gal/hour that's about 450 pounds of full burnt off. So rate of climb would have been more like 300-400 ft per minute.

I think it is more likely that the plane iced up. Looking at the pictures of the aircraft before the accident, it is clear that it did not have deice gear. witnesses on the ground said that they were in the middle of an ice storm. In addition to the weight added by the ice; an iced prop will produce less thrust and get heavier reducing RPMs, also reducing trust. At night, this might look like engine trouble.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Think a Seneca will even maintain alt w/ a fair amount load?
fergusdg1
David Ferguson 3
I'm the owner of a 1979 Seneca II and at max gross weight it will climb with a single engine to 14,000 feet. Not real fast, about 200 ft. per minute. This aircraft wasn't likely at max gross weight. The kids were 7, 9 and 14, I would bet that their average weight was around 75 pounds (225 pounds). The adults were likely around 300 pounds, that's a total of 525 pounds, add luggage 650 maybe. I can carry full fuel tanks with that load 123 gals. The plane had been flying for almost three hours, at 25 gal/hour that's about 450 pounds of full burnt off. So rate of climb would have been more like 300-400 ft per minute.

I think it is more likely that the plane iced up. Looking at the pictures of the aircraft before the accident, it is clear that it did not have deice gear. witnesses on the ground said that they were in the middle of an ice storm. In addition to the weight added by the ice; an iced prop will produce less thrust and get heavier reducing RPMs, also reducing trust. At night, this might look like engine trouble.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
I can only add that we were not having an ice storm; however I'll bet there was icing somewhere in the cloud layer. Don't know what the tops were but he did decend from 12 to 6. Low ceilings and vis in entire area. Low enough that the only LEGAL approach would have been ILS. Thanx for info.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Not a 1, but I'm pretty sure a 5 will...

[This poster has been suspended.]

jaspc
Jose Suro 1
I think the ROC is 190 fpm on one engine

[This poster has been suspended.]

WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Seems like I read long ago that the published roc on one engine is done in a perfectly rigged airplane with a test pilot flying at sea level and standard temp. What we do know is this 1979 model did not even maintain alt.

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
preacher1 0
I'll disagree with you on the King Air not being certified but I will agree with you on being in one rather than a Seneca. Never did the Seneca but put my time in a Navajo back in the day. Not a lot of difference.

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
preacher1 2
You are correct and it will. LOL
linbb
linbb -1
General rule among most pilots is that a twin just extends the distance to the crash site. Twins are very hard to handle by most pilots and if one gets behind for some reason this is the result.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -2
The 2nd engine just helps you get to the Crash Site!
btweston
btweston 1
Holy ancient story, Batman!
jaspc
Jose Suro 1
I just saw the report on CNN @ ~3:50pm EST. They have aerial pictures of the the crash site. The aircraft came to a rest upside down and this completely crushed the cabin except for the furthermost rear. This because the vertical stabilizer held in place and kept the back of the cabin from being completely crushed.

The starboard propeller detached along with the spinner and can be seen on the ground about eight feet straight in front of the nacelle. This indicates to me that the starboard engine was running at impact. The port nacelle is behind small trees so it's impossible to see that side.

The aircraft's fuselage is reasonably intact from the instrument panel bulkhead back (the nose came off) except for the contact with the ground which crushed the cabin and other impacts with trees. The gear was not extended. CNN reported that there was a small fire. Hard to believe that from the pictures. There is no fire damage visible immediately around the main wreckage.

That little girl had to crawl out from an upside down plane, in the dark.

Unbelievable.

God bless them all.
ExCalbr
Victor Engel 0
I believe there were pictures of the fire, at least seen from a distance. I think it was the daily mail link, posted on this thread that had those images.
ExCalbr
Victor Engel 1
Fund set up to benefit the survivor.
http://fox8.com/2015/01/04/fund-set-up-to-help-7-year-old-plane-crash-survivor/
glen4cindy
Glen England 1
Another Sole Survivor story. I watched CNN earlier and noticed in light of the recent AirAsia crash they are repeating that documentary movie...

[This poster has been suspended.]

baileyms
Matthew Bailey 0
I'm sure that little girl will view her survival and her family perishing in an airplane crash as a miracle. Either you're lucky or you're not.
bassam
bassam 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

7-year-old survives plane crash that kills 4 in Kentucky

(CNN) -- A small plane went down in western Kentucky Friday evening, killing four people, according to Sgt. Dean Patterson with the Kentucky State Police

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/02/us/kentucky-plane-crash/index.html

[This poster has been suspended.]

bovineone
Jeff Lawson 5
We have no desire to limit use of our website or discussion areas to only aviators. Anyone with an interest in aviation is welcome to participate and learn from the content/discussion available. On occasion we may remove content that is inflammatory or blatantly off-topic but we try to minimize our moderation in order to encourage a free and open discussion area.
preacher1
preacher1 4
Thank You Mr.Lawson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and kudos to the whole bunch of you for providing a forum.
preacher1
preacher1 2
I have a recommended change into Flight Aware about a person's rating, to be able to show retired or not on the profile. That needs to be rectified because in looking at yours, it only shows PRIVATE/IFR. You sound like and experienced pilot, in particular, the god captains that I vowed years ago to try and never be like, way before the days of CRM. If that be the case, with the same right as you had to tell the unlearned, get the hell off this site. I paid my dues and proud of it, and your suggestion would do no good anyway, as a lot of folks are under a secrecy contract with their employers and their cert is blacked out to the public just as some planes are. I'm kind like Joel here below, How's your website coming?

[This poster has been suspended.]

bovineone
Jeff Lawson 3
Please be respectful of other users and not resort to name calling (re "arrogant ignorant"). Help to educate those users that you feel are incorrect by replying directly to those comments with well-reasoned responses instead. That is what builds a better aviation forum that is welcoming to all.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Most 121's are not under secrecy. I flew big iron for a consulting/efficiency company that demands it. They made it very worthwhile but that directive and requirement was to all their people, not just the flight crews.
Bernie20910
Bernie20910 1
There's this thing you may be unaware of counselor, called a "Contact" button. It's up there on the left, just below the "About FlightAware" button (which also has a Contact selection, glory be!) You might want to try using that, rather than an off-topic post in a thread. Chances are, you'll actually be able to contact the site owners that way.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
How is the development of your own aviator-only website coming? How soon will it be up and you won't have to bother with the drivel of the flightless rabble? Flightaware IS a public forum as I mentioned to you before.

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
preacher1 2
There is not a misunderstanding, and just to be plain, whether you truly are or not, you come across as a pompous ass, thinking you are better than a lot on here, just because you are a pilot. For 10 years, starting in 1973, I worked for a guy like you and made a vow that if he retired and I moved up, I would NEVER treat people like that. Since 1983, when I pinned on my 4, I hope that I can say I never did. The man that replaced me was my long term FO and felt the same way, and this was a long time before CRM came around. If you ever were a senior Captain, I'll bet guys were begging their dispatchers not to trip with you. You sorry bastards have probably been responsible for causing many good people to get out of the business. Airlines weren't the only one but we are talking aviation here. Lot's of other folks on here wanting to learn as well. They can't learn unless they ask questions and are taught. May be some wannabe's but they are our wannabes. As I said before, if this offends you, get the hell off this site.

[This poster has been suspended.]

WALLACE24
WALLACE24 3
My 2 cents. On an open forum there will always be off topic remarks and speculation. That said, I find informed speculation enlightening. As we arm chair the possibilities someone always comes up with something I had not thought of. Most of us were on the track of the loss of one engine till Mike Mohle brought up the loss of both engines. While we all realize we are just speculating it is still a chance to learn. So I will gladly put up with the remarks that are of no interest to me to read the ones that are of interest to me.
preacher1
preacher1 2
There probably are some that fit in your classification. That said, they may be sincere in asking a question that sounds totally frivolous to someone in the industry. The god culture among senor Captains back in the day was well know; didn't matter if you were 121, 90, or 135. We operated as 90 but were set as a 135 for various reasons, but the bad part about that was everytime you came to work, the same guy was in the left seat. He had only had the job for a couple of years, eventually retired and the right seat guy moved over and he was even worse. Come his retirement time, we were glad to see him go. Point is, when that cockpit cleared out, and I made an FO out of our FE, It started being a pleasure to come to work, and that was from the FE. That young man flew my right for 26 years and we never had a cross word. We had CRM starting in 86 rather than the 90's, when it became official. That is the world I came out of. I see you took issue with "sorry bastards" but not "pompous ass". Interesting
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
My apologies to the the group for diverting from the topic of the tragic last flight of N29191, the factors leading to its demise and the human-interest story of the young sole survivor.
kd7eir
Jim Myers 1
I'm curious as to how you come to the conclusion that only pilots need access to the services and news that FlightAware provides? Do you fancy yourself a privileged class of person by virtue of being a pilot? In reality a pilot's license is no greater than any other license, and it certainly has no ability to lift one into some stratospheric class of people that deserve exclusive access to ANYTHING other than the right to legally operate an aircraft by themselves.

As a pilot and staunch first amendment advocate, I suggest that if you find this place offensive it's YOU that needs to leave, not anyone else.

I can guarantee you that FlightAware was not conceived, designed, built, nor is it operated to suit YOUR particular sensibilities.

The good thing is that there is absolutely NOTHING keeping you hostage here - you can leave this "chat room" at anytime you choose.

[This poster has been suspended.]

kd7eir
Jim Myers 2
Again, counselor, NOTHING is forcing you to remain here. Your continued presence exhibits tacit approval of the site in it's current format, so I really see no justification for your continued dogging of the site and/or its content. Perhaps start your own site, that way YOU can set all the rules and only allow people that are willing to walk in lock-step with your particular desires.
timberbailey1
jim russell -2
I agree with you 100 percent.. I came here looking for a educated honest forum, but like most forums they are has beens or wannabes. But why do you waste your time engaging in dialogue with them.
preacher1
preacher1 0
I can understand your feeling about wannabee's but I have to assume envy or jealousy about the others, in that we have paid our dues and been there done that while ya'll are still going thru it. I'm glad I don't have to fly with people unwilling to learn.
timberbailey1
jim russell 0
you don't have time to fly with me your to busy posting you cat 1,2,3, and you paid your dues babble.you still flying the line?
preacher1
preacher1 1
I guess I'm a has been. I retired at the end of November with 19000+ hours flying 135 big iron.
timberbailey1
jim russell 2
congrats on the retirement, enjoy yourself.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I will thank you, but that now gives me plenty of time to post. LOL
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Post away Wayne. Last I heard posting AND reading are optional. I luv this retirement stuff.
nasdisco
Chris B 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

7 year old girl lone survivor of PA34 crash that killed her family

Disorientated girl, 7, knocks on stranger's door and says she has been in a plane crash prompting search that found wreckage with four bodies inside
The child walked to a home in southwestern Kentucky telling resident she had been in a crash
Officials located downed aircraft near KY 810 South in rural Lyon County
FAA received a distress call at 5.55pm from a private plane flying from Key West, Florida, to Mt Vernon, Illinois
The pilot of Piper PA-34-200T reported engine troubles while flying over Marshall County
Kentucky State Police identified victims as Marty Gutzler, 49, wife Kim Gutzler, 45, 9-year-old daughter, Piper, 14-year-old cousin, Sierra Wilder
Lone survivor of the crash was hospitalized with only minor injuries



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2895147/Girl-7-survives-small-plane-crash-killed-four-people-Kentucky.html
ltcjra
ltcjra 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Police: Girl, 7, says she survived Ky. plane crash

Searchers found a crashed Piper PA-34 near Kentucky Lake; pilot and 3 passengers dead.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/01/02/police-girl-7-says-she-survived-ky-plane-crash/21219009/

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